Exploring Sexual Self Discovery in Midlife and Kinky Queer Erotic Writing with Anna Sansom

Ep 557: Exploring Sexual Self Discovery in Midlife and Kinky Queer Erotic Writing with Anna Sansom: Reclaiming Desire and Writing to Your Edges.

Join Ruan Willow as she delves into an intimate conversation with Anna Sansom, a midlife, kinky queer writer whose work spans erotic fiction and personal essays on sexuality and relationships. Anna shares her journey through the transformative power of masturbation and how it became a spiritual practice that saved her life. Her latest anthology, "Sex Meets Life," is a collection of stories from 17 diverse authors exploring the intersection of sex and life's challenges. (affiliate link) Book "Sex Meets Life" https://amzn.to/4h10sta

Discover Anna's insights on the importance of self-exploration, the reclamation of desire, and the significance of writing to your edges. This episode is a celebration of diversity, inclusivity, and the power of storytelling in understanding our sexual selves. Don't miss Anna's captivating reading from her anthology, a piece that will leave you reflecting on your own journey of sexual discovery.

🗣️ Quotes from Anna Sansom
"Masturbation was a double act. My mind and body both had to be present for it to work."
"I love shining a light on these things, you know, that's partly why I write."
"Writing is a doorway in."
"We create the things we want to see in the world."
🗣️ Quotes from Ruan Willow
"We weren't given these sensations to not feel them."

Dive into the world of erotic writing with Anna Sansom! Discover the power of spicy storytelling and self-publishing.

Connect with Anna:
Substack: https://annasansom.substack.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anna_sansom_writer/
Website: https://annasansom.com/about-anna-2/

Her erotic short stories have been published in anthologies and online, including Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume 10 https://amzn.to/4hkkCxV ;
The Big Book of Quickies https://amzn.to/3Wr1039;
I Write the Body; and Take it Outside and she is a founding author of Theo Reads. As well as short stories, she has a lesbian, BDSM erotic novel called Coming Close, 2nd Edition  https://amzn.to/40fQVY2

2024 Golden Pigtails Awards for Smut, Erotic books, and audiobooks. Nominate your favorite erotica books by January 21, 2025 at https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdzYvYr10OQY8Li0C82vf7q5Ve-Pg89mDHZ0UPoH_OdXj01wA/viewform

Ruan's new audiobook "Protectors" with superheroes, time travel, action, and sex scenes at https://books.ruanwillowauthor.com/protectorsaudiobook

Chapters

• 6:50 Excerpt from the Sex Meets Life anthology book, Masturbation Saved My Life

Transcript

This transcript was created by headliner ai. It's not 100% correct because it was not edited by a human so please excuse the errors. Email questions to ruanwillow@gmail.com

Season 5, Episode 557. Copyright Pink Infinity Publishing LLC 2025. All Rights reserved.

 Ruan Willow: Hello, everyone. This is Ruan Willow. Welcome to my podcast. I'm super excited today because I get to talk to another author, another writer, which is my, total passion is writing and other writers. And I love to champion other writers too. I think it's so great how we have all these different voices in the world and we're living in an amazing time where we can self publish these things. Some of these things would never even come to the light of day in traditional publishing, are just being blasted across the Internet and this is just fabulous.


Anna Sansom is a midlife, kinky queer writer.

I would like to welcome my guest today who is Anna Sanum. Did I say that right?

>> Speaker B Anna Sansom: You did, yeah. Thank you.

>> Ruan Willow: Awesome. and she is a midlife, kinky queer pronoun. She. Her. Her erotic short stories have been published in anthologies and online including Best Women's Erotica of the Year, Volume 10, the Big Book of Quick I Write the Body and Take It Outside. And she's a founding author of Theo Reeds as well as short stories. She has a lesbian BDSM erotic novel called Coming Close, Second edition. In addition to writing erotica, Anna trained and worked as a sexual surrogate partner in a sex therapy clinic and wrote this sex life pages for Diva magazine, the leading magazine for LGBTQIA women and nonbinary people for two years. Her more than, a memoir, Desire Lines, shares personal stories as well as erotica and invites you to ask the questions and explore the answers, which can lead to greater understanding and enjoyment of your sexual self. In 2024, she curated and, edited an anthology called Sex Meets Life, with a foreword by M.J. m. Barker. This book offers intimate stories from 17 diverse and international authors about what happens to our sex lives when they come face to face with life. Her latest writing, A Living Experiment of Desire and Queer Midlife, can be found on Substack. Anna teaches erotic writing and her workshops have been described as a beautiful balance of space, safety, permission and encouragement. She has a PhD in occupational therapy and is serious tea addiction. She loves swimming in the sea and talking to her cats. She can be found on Substack at Anna Samsson Instagram. Anna Samson Sanum writer and she has a website, annaansum.comt welcome Anna. I'm so excited to talk with you.

>> Speaker B: Thank you so much and thank you for inviting me onto your podcast. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you.

>> Ruin Willow: I'm really excited too. And you know, I have to put a little punch in there for Theo Res because I'm there as well. So that's starting. It's start by the time this airs, it should be even more live because right now the free stories are starting to launch to the public, which is so exciting. I'm really excited about that. How are you today?

>> Speaker B: I'm good, thank you. We have a really big storm raging at the moment though, so I don't think it will come through on the mic. But yeah, it's wild outside.

>> Ruin Willow: You're inside, right?

>> Speaker B: I am, yes.


Masturbation Saved my life is a chapter from your latest book

>> Ruin Willow: Well, I was wondering if you would give our, our listeners a taste of some of your writing. Would you be willing to read for us?

>> Speaker B: I would love to. Thank you. Awesome.

>> Ruin Willow: M start whenever you're ready.

>> Speaker B: Great. Thank you. So this is an excerpt. Well, it's a chapter from my, latest anthology which is called Sex meets Life. And this is a chapter that I wrote for the book and it's called Masturbation Saved my life. I don't know which of us was more mortified, my 12 year old best friend or me. I just innocently asked while we were walking home from school, what does masturbation mean? Her cheeks glowed red and she stared at the scuffed toes of her black lace up shoes. Despite her obvious embarrassment, being a true friend, she managed to stammer out an answer. It'it's when you touch yourself, you know, because it feels good. I didn't know. I hadn't discovered the joys of touching myself yet. Well, unless you count that time when I was around 10 and wrapped a length of yarn around my waist before threading it between my legs and pulling tightly on both ends until I felt. What? Pleasure. Not a word or a feeling I knew back then. Rather it was a fleeting feeling of yumminess. A bit like the first spoonful of chocolate ice cream at the end of a meal. Back home. Having said goodbye to my friend until the next morning, I did what I should have done before putting her on the spot. I opened up the dictionary. There, in the chamber's 20th century dictionary I read Masturbation. Noun. Stimulation, usually by oneself, of the sexual organs, by manipulation etc. So as to produce orgasm. More words I didn't understand. I flicked over the pages. Orgasm. Noun. Immoderate excitement. Culmination of sexual excitement. Taresnce of any organ. This was feeling like a school lesson. Now I closed the book and went out to play. As an older teen and into my early adulthood, masturbation continued to be a lesson I had to persevere with. I knew the bit about stimulating my genitals, but I didn't have a clue about how to translate friction into Something that felt pleasurable. I would rub and rub until I was sore, my vulva dry and weary, my clited limp and complaining. I still hadn't found that elusive feel good factor. But fast forward to my late 30s, and I was propped up on some cushions with my legs spread wide. A woman sat between my thighs, her back leaning on my chest. We'd only met an hour ago, but she was naked, and my hand was gently placed on top of hers. Her fingers made tentative circles on her clit. I was a member of a sex therapy team, working as a sexual surrogate partner to support people of all genders in learning about their bodies. Sex and ###im the student had become the teacher. I'd come a long way, but I knew I still had a long way to go. At that point, masturbation had shifted from something purely mechanical and unfulfilling to involving fantasy and my imagination and a lot more orgasms. Through trial and error, on my own and with other people, I'd learned the types of touches that got me off. More importantly, I'd also discovered the circumstances I needed to feel arousal and just how vital it was to actively desire what could follow. Masturbation was a double act. My mind and body both had to be present for it to work. Sure, there were some occasions when I just needed the quick and easy release of a vibrator held firmly against my clit. But increasingly I found myself needing something that had more meaning. A third member was about to join the party. Masturbation was soon to become a spiritual practice. The first time it happened, I was genuinely shocked. Instead of my usual fantasies of a lover touching me passionately and roughly until I was a trembling, moaning mess in their arms. This time I was alone. I pictured my cunt as a cauldron of fire. As I stirred the pot, sparks began to fly. I felt potent, powerful. I spoke one word aloud as my hands danced over my vva mine. My fingers entered me and the cauldron began to overflow. I was molten. My fire spread all around me. Now I was phoenix, and I was rising, rising, rising. Mine. My flaming feathers took me higher and higher, and I was free of gravity. I soared up into the stars. Now I was a meteor, a ball of fire moving faster than the speed of light. I was the light. I was mine. The orgasm that followed felt like an implosion. All the power I just connected with was drawn deep into my body. I contained an entire universe, a billion stars. Infinite possibilities. Life continued in the way that life does. Several years passed. I did my job. Now As a health researcher at a university, I cooked my meals. I nurtured my relationships. But somewhere along the line, stress began to mount. I could feel it in the tension in my jaw. I started to grind my teeth and my sleep, and my dentist advised me to wear a bite guard at night. My shoulders got painfully tight. I frequently had headaches, my libido suffered. I wasn't interested in sex or masturbation. Eventually, I had to admit this was feeling like burnout. My inner flame was extinguished. I could no longer access my spark. Oh, now what?


River spent two years working in a sex therapy clinic that offered surrogate partner therapy

I'd spent two years training and working in the intimate setting of the sex therapy clinic. It offered a very particular type of therapy, surrogate partner therapy. The uniqueness of this work is that involves three people. The client, the therapist and the surrogate partner. The surrogate partner is there to help the client have embodied experiences alongside the talk therapy sessions with the therapist. There are clearane boundaries around the relationships. But as the name suggests, sex can take place between the client and surrogate. Of course, the definition of sex is incredibly broad and the surrogate's role could include all kinds of sensual and sexual activities, along with emotional connections. For what is intimacy without connection? Part of my work was learning to become embodied and learning to become connected to my intuition. I learned how to use my breath to cent centre and ground me. I learned how to listen to my body, how it felt when I got a clear yes as well as a definite no. And I learned how to respond when my body offered me, a maybe. I learned how to stay present to myself as well as to the other person. The three hour long sessions often felt like they flew by. It was mindfulness and practice. I experienced a state of flow. That's not to say that it was always perfect or that it didn't take a toll on me. That amount of presence and attention could leave me feeling too sensitized to the world. And at times, after a particularly intense or challenging session, I had to retreat into old numbing patterns of overeating and zoning out in front of the tv. Back to the burnout. I'm using that term because it truly felt like the fire in my hearth had turned to ash. As I ra through the remains, however, I found one small glowing ember. I offered it a little of my breath and it glowed brighter. For a moment, I knew I had to save this part of me. I had to nurture my ember back into roaring flames. But to do that, I'd have to go gently. I returned to my masturbation meditation, my medabation at first, all I could do was just breathe. With one hand on my belly and the other resting over my heart. I moved my hand lower now, connecting my pelvis with my heart. And then focused my attention on my pelvis and the area between my eyebrows. My third die, in energetic or Wu terms. No expectation, no demands. Just giving presence and connection to myself. Again I realized I'd become critical of myself and my perceived lack of sexual energy. My body had stopped being a sight of pleasure. Everything felt heavy and murky. My ember flickered. The next medabation was a one word affirmation. Naked, I touched each part of my body lightly. I started from the crown of my head, then moved to my brow, my nose, my lips, my ears, my chin. Each touch was accompanied by the word love spoken out loud. Then to my throat, my collarbones, my shoulders, arms and hands, my breasts, my ribs, my belly, my mound, my hips, my thighs, my knees, my feet. Love. I moved back up to cup my vulva with my palm. Did I want more touch there? I listened and waited for my body and my motions to respond. Yes, Gently, gently. Breathing more oxygen onto the ember, allowing my breath to keep me present. I, am here. As my fingers explored this almost forgotten landscape, little sparks of pleasure glowed like fireflies in the wake of my touches. I was bringing my sexual self back to life. Even more than that, I was bringing life back to myself. I appreciate this may sound overly dramatic, but this wasn't just a one time epiphany. The thing about being a human being living through these times is that stress is only ever a heartbeat away. We're surrounded by stressors that can accumulate and create all kinds of disease in our bodies. I haven't yet found anything that can shield me from this. So I've become reliant on having ways to counteract it. I picture it like rewinding an old VHS tape. I can go back to the beginning and record a news story over the top of what's gone before. But I'm never starting with a brand new tape. Eventually, I suppose the tape will get tangled or snap or the video player will stop working. That's inevitable. The circle of life and death. But in the meantime, I get to start over. Masturbation is one of the things I do to recalibrate. Spending time in nature is another. I need to have these embodied encounters where I feel my feet on the earth or in the sea, or the touch of my fingers on my breasts and cunt. I need to hear the sounds of birdsong or a River gushing or my breath quickening as I'm about to come. I need to smell and taste salty air or a forest floor or the hot scent of my own desire. Without this embodied time, I'm simply thoughts and habits unconnected to anything that truly matters or brings me joy. In my medabation, masturbation, I fucked the universe. I've reclaimed lost parts of me, and I've discovered new parts. Most m of all, I have made my sexuality mine, My energy, my choices. And there's a tremendous amount of power in feeling this way. Life giving power. After writing the first draft of this essay, I needed to feel this sexual potency again. I needed to know that what I was saying was true. I needed to prove to myself, and perhaps to you, that masturbation can be that powerful. So I gifted myself my time and attention, a bundle of accessories and my breath. Sunshine streamed in through the window and, warmed my naked skin, allowing me to feel nature's presence as well as my own. My first orgasm was a deep internal one, an energetic inhale that filled me up and focused my energy into a glowing orange ball right in the center of my pelvis. My second was the release, the exhale, sending the glow to every cell of my being and, out beyond me into the world. Like the radiating heat from a campfire or perhaps an eternal flame. Back to the dictionary. Eternal flame, noun. A small fire that is kept burning is a symbol to show that something will never end. Betty Dodsdson, author of Sex for One the Joy of Self Loving Masturbation teacher, sex educator and artist, wrotees, Masturbation is the ongoing love affair that each of us has with ourselves throughout our lifetime. It will get you through childhood, puberty, romance, marriage and divorce. And it will see you through old age. Betty lived to be 91 years old.

>> Ruin Willow: Wow. that was incredible. And it's so in line with what I believe in, what I try to I say on my podcast and what just it's so. I love how you made it its whole body, right?


Masturbation is not a sin, it's not bad

And also that it's no different than going into the forest and smelling the smells and feeling the sun. Our cultures have made it different and it's not different. It's no different than enjoying a strawberry, a piece of chocolate, but they have made it different. And so I forgot to tell everybody at the beginning that this is the oh fuck yeah with Woo and Willow podcast. And if you're listening to this on YouTube, you will not get the amazing reading that she just did. So you're going to have to go to the podcast apps or substack and then you can hear her amazing, amazing, life changing piece of writing. So go check there if you are on YouTube. Sorry babes, you don't get it here because they are a bunch of prudes. So go everywhere else and you look at it. We live here in the land of puritanical B's land. So you won't get it unless you go there. But thank you so much. That was amazing. What an incredible piece of work. And I just feel like masturbation does get this evil IC feel from a lot of people and it's so dumb. It's so dumb. We weren't given these sensations to not feel them. I mean we were created to do this, to feel it. So it's awful. Moreurbation, more masturbation. And it's not bad. It s not evil. And I just hate the whole thing of people calling it like a sin or something like that. Like seriously, this is a part of our body. I don't think our creator would create something for that would be a sin. That doesn't even make any sense.

>> Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. And I think the other thing that people often think is it's like it's second best. It'you know, it's a second best to sex with another person. but actually like that's why I love Betty Dodson's work because she put it first. You know, it wasn't a second best. It was, it was prominent. It was the first priority we can give to ourselves. It's the first relationship we can create with ourselves. And then we can go to create sexual relationships with other people if we choose. But if we don't have that foundation relationship with ourselves, we're missing an opportunity.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. And pretty much probably your sex is not all that it could be if you don't understand your own body that you would have learned through masturbation and play. You don't know you're missing out. You don't really have all the pieces of the puzzle so you're not going to enjoy the full thing. And I think it's really hard too because like so many people think I shouldn't do this or I should more should be doing this with a partner. That's better like you said, like it somehow is elevated when it's with another person. And I just. We need to rewrite our thinking on that. And essays like you just said, really are helpful. So is that book full of essays? So it's non fiction book. Oay.

>> Speaker B: It's A mixture, actually. So there'seventeen authors contributed. Everybody wrote about a topic that was relevant to their lived experience. But a small number of them decided to fictionalize, their story. And I think it works really well. So it's predominantly personal essays, but then there are some beautiful fictional pieces in it as well, which really sort of capture another level of experience.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. And I feel like I haven't really seen. I mean, not that I know the entire market, obviously, but I feel like I really haven't seen something like this on the market where, people talking about. Because sex is very personal, masturbation is very personal. A lot of people don't want to put their name on that. You know, like, they think they don't want other people, or some people might just feel it's personal. So I think, I champion all the people that did that, contributed to that, because that's so needed.

>> Speaker B: yes. Thank you. Thank you.


Sex Meettes Life features 17 diverse voices talking about their sexuality

And what's lovely about the contributors to Sex Meettes Life is everybody's talking about the significant events and moments of their life. So for me, it was this experience of feeling so burnt out that I couldn't access my sexual self at all. And then having to find a way back. And I have to say, masturbation was one of the ways. Erotic writing was another way that I found my way back to my sexual self. But other people in the book are writing about things like, navigating their sex lives, during times of illness or disability or becoming a caregiver, menopause, aging. so all of these different things that can happen in our lives that we think our sex lives are sort of something in a box over here. But actually, everything else that's going on in the rest of our lives inevitably has an impact to how we feel about our bodies, to how we feel about confidence, to how we feel about sharing a level of intimacy with another person or with ourselves that. That might touch on some emotional place that perhaps we don't actually want to go at that time because we don't feel resilient enough. So that's why I love the diversity in this book, this collection, because everybody brings a unique experience, and yet we all have these common themes. So there are writers in the book, are different ages, different genders, live in different countries and have all sorts of differences. But the things we have in common are things like wanting to feel good in our bodies, wanting to enjoy intimacy in ways that, are personally meaningful and fulfilling. I wanting to be loved and appreciated for who we truly are. And I Think these are sort of like universal themes that, that most people, if not everybody, can relate to. And so we see, we see this diverse collection of stories, but there are elements that we can see our own story reflected in it.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh yeah, yeah. And just to have 17 voices of, if they're very open, obviously talking about their sexuality, which is something that is not necessarily common in our world. Right. You know, you have people who write erotica, you have people who write essays on sex, but there's a lot of people who can't even talk about it, don't want to think about it, let alone write about it and put it out in the world and be like, hey, this is what happened to me. You. This is how I overcame this. So that's soast valuable for a lot of people and just people who want to explore things. And that's the one reason I love erotica too, is it's somewhere for people to like their mind can play and be like, do I like this? Do I not like this? You know, it's a way to introduce things to your partner. Hey, what do you think about this book? You know, stuff like that. But it, it's just, I think it's just so heartbreaking how especially for women when we're young, were actually discouraged more from masturbation in boys than boys are like, you know, my experience growing up was jokes about, oh, haa, he's in the shower, I know what he's doing. No, nobody said that about girls. It was not okay. My own experience was, I remember being in elementary school, running to my mom. I was full of excitement. I was this innocent person. And I said, mom, I cannot believe. This is amazing. I can touch between my legs and it feels incredible. And she looked at me and she said, you shouldn't be doing that. Shut me down, shut me down. And it took me a long time to get back to it. And the w. I now looking back, I can see this. I became a grinder. Guess why? Because I wasn't touching.

>> Speaker B: Yes, yes.

>> Ruin Willow: And that hit me one day when I was talking on the podcast. I'm like, that's why. I know. That's why I became a grinder, because I was following mom's direction. You shouldn't be touching yourself, right?

>> Speaker B: Yep, yep. My hands are still here. You can see my hands.

>> Ruin Willow: It's just, you know, and I think you need to reflect on your own sexuality. If you can get yourself to at least start reflecting on your own sexuality in your history, I think that's a.

>> Speaker B: Step right absolutely. And a lot of my work is around that. Being curious about yourself, about your stories, about your experiences, about your wants and needs and we can learn and you know, explore these things from reading other people's stories, be it erotic fiction or essays or whatever it is. Because they do trigger, I think, and I mean trigger in a positive way, not in a negative way, but they sort of catalyze thoughts about. Oh, is that something I would like? Is that you. What was my experience of masturbation growing up? As you've just shared all of these kind of questions and I love, like for me that element of curiosity is the thing that helps me to keep evolving and exploring my sexuality as I get older and as I go through all these different life events that m somehow sort of try to interrupt or disrupt who I feel myself to be as a sexual person.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. And I think it's, you know, reading something like that, what you wrote, it helps us see that this is a beautiful natural thing. This is not a shame filled a scenario where we are told that this is bad. It just gives it another narrative for people. Right. To see it as. I just love the thing. We weren't given taste buds to not taste food. We weren't given genitals to not feel things in our genitals. This is ridiculous. Where are these things coming from? I mean it'just to me it's just ludicrous that all these people in this world are buying this shit.

>> Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. And as you say, the differences between how boys and girls are socialized to feel about their bodies, to feel about their genitals, to feel about interacting with, with their sexuality in a way that allows them to feel like they have choice and control.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes.

>> Speaker B: I think all of these things sort of play into our experiences as adults. yeah. And I love shining a light on these things, you know, that'that's partly why I write because it's such a great way for me to explore questions and curiosities, but also to shine the light on topics otherwise people consider to be taboo. You know, it's not nice to talk about masturbation.

>> Ruin Willow: Right, right.

>> Speaker B: And yeah, I do want. Because I wrote a post once, and I also say it in the book like I, I would call myself a wanker. And I don't know if that term translates but here in the uk, you know, that's a term that, it's quite a derogatory term. It's usually like men will call each other orh. You're a wanr. And it's the samend I've heard that, but actually no, I'm, I'm reclaiming it. I'm reclaiming that term. yes. Somebody who masturbates.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes.

>> Speaker B: And I refuse to feel shame for that.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, exactly.


For me, things started to turn around in my early 40s

And then I have to tell people who are younger that I really did not get to this place until midlife too. So for me, you know, things started to turn around in my early 40s. So people who are younger listening to this, you are being shaped and molded and prevented. And I was not able to unprogram myself with all that damage until midlife. So people who are younger, you hold on to hope and try to reframe your thinking and don't buy into this stuff because it's not evil, it's not bad, it's our bodies. Is rubbing my arm evil? Noh. It's just a part of my body. We need to think of this as just genitals are just another part of our body.

>> Speaker B: Yep, yep. I agree, I agree. And like you'it took me time to unpack my conditioning and my socialization. It also took me time to learn about my body.

>> Speaker B: And that was embodied learning. You know, I had to explore a hands on and so learning to find out more about what pleasure feels like for me, how to create pleasure in my body, what I can then communicate to another person about creating a pleasure dance between us.

>> Ruin Willow: And it's hard to think for a lot of people because not only are you getting this from outside external sources, religion, culture, society, you may be getting it from your damn partner. So be aware of that. I like to point that out to people like you may be being restricted unnowingly until you pay attention to it by what your partner thinks and believes. You know, these are things people need to think about, but we don't it, we hear things like this right? Then they're like oh wait a minute, you know, I don't have to think about it that way. I don't have to buy into this.

>> Speaker B: Yes. And I think what's wonderful now as well, particularly for the younger generations is we have access to things like erotic audio material, erotic written material in a much. We have much easier and a more broader ranging access than I certainly had growing up. We also have access to all kinds of resources to help us learn about our bodies and teach us how to touch ourselves and all of these kinds of things. So the information and the knowledge and the resources out there, but there still has to be that like Self permission to access them and to enjoy them.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. And so that gives me hope for things moving forward. Even though sometimes I feel like things are going backwards, it overall is going forwards because of what you just said. So you know, people can go around banning all the fucking books they want, but that is not going to change a damn thing. They can listen, they can go online, they can talk to each other, they can know I'm not the only person like this, I am allowed to think this. And so that's out there whether not, you know, so they think that they're doing all this like you know, banning of books and you know, modeling how people should be. It's not going to fucking work, people, because we are all talking, we are all out here doing this stuff and it's just, it's kind of like they're like pinking at a mountain that already is there. So you can pink all you want, but you're not going to take down that mountain.

>> Speaker B: Ear here.


You chose to self publish Sex Meets Life because it's inclusive

Yep, yep. And I picked up at the start you said about, you know, the rise in self publishing and that's another way that we can sort of, you, get beyond other people's censorship or limitations. And I actually decided in the end to self publish Sex Meets Life because I felt so strongly about the themes and the voices that I wanted to be able to include in it. So it does include people of different gender, experiences of different sexualities, different ages, like such a broad range. And I did talk to mainstream publishers and they basically said, you can't have all these people in one book. It's too diverse, it's too inclusive. And my feeling was, but we all live intersectional lives. You know, we're all so many different things, we wear so many different hats, we go through life and have so many different experiences and we can learn from stories that are similar to our own as well as those that are very different to ours. And so that was really important to me to be able to say no. This collection of voices deserve to be heard and they deserve to be heard on an equal platform. And so here's the platform, here's the book. yeah, so I love what you're doing as well because it's that same, I think it's that same sort of attitude and energy which says no, we create the things we want to see in the world.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. I actually have a romance book under my real name that I'm like right now trying to decide do I want to traditionally publish or self publish. I now I'm starting To think of it this way, traditional publishing is inside the box. Self publishing can be inside the box, but it can be all the outside of the box too. So there's so much more in self publishing and possible in self publishing. Like yeah, with your book, they might have said, oh no, you can't have this story, we'll publish it, but you need to take this story out.

>> Speaker B: Yes, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah.

>> Ruin Willow: So you're signing up for censorship. I'm not going to poo poo traditional publishing. I actually have one book traditionally published with a publisher that's just ended up being horrible and they have barely done anything with my book, so.


For Sex Meets Life, you are choosing self publishing

And I know a lot of people have great experiences and a lot of books are big, traditionally published. A lot are self published, but for people listening. So for you, you are choosing self publishing. Can you tell people listening other than what you've said or anything else that made you dec side the self publishing route?

>> Speaker B: Yes. So I've actually had experience of traditional publishing, indie publishing, hybrid publishing, and now self publishing and the last one being the self publishing. So I had a bit of a basis to make that decision around. My first publications were actually with short, stories and anthologies that were with traditional publishers, not the big, the big names, but you know, traditional publishers and those worked really well. At that time that was sort of, late, the late 2000s, early 2010s, which of course was the era of Fifty Shades of Grey, which was the era where it was so much more socially acceptable to, you know, to be reading erotica and all that kind of thing. Even my mother had a copy of 50 Shades of Gre.

>> Ruin Willow: I love it.

>> Speaker B: so at that time having my short stories in those anthologies worked really well because there was a general, there was a general sort of feeling that erotica, erotic fiction was acceptable and people were enjoying it. Then I think that wave kind of dipped and those of us who were still writing erotica were finding it harder to find opportunities to, to get our writing traditionally published. But of course the Internet was rising as well. So then there was more online opportunities. and then I started exploring, indie publishers, which I have to say I love working with indie publishers because generally speaking, the ones that I've worked with, they are so heart led know this is their passion. And for me, writing is my passion. So I love it when those two come together. but then for Sex Meets Life, I think because it didn't fit in any box, it's not conventional, it's not an erotica anthology, it's a mixture of personal essays and fiction. it, as I said, you know, I wanted this platform for the celebration of diversity. And also I'd reached a point in my life. So I'm in my 50s now. I've been through a lot in recent years with sort of health stuff and menopause and my own sexuality. And I just got to the point where I was. Just had this really strong sense of I want control. I want the control. I want to be able to do it my way. I don't want to have to compromise. Yeah, I'm not willing to compromise. And I was very fortunate that all of the authors in the book have been amazing. Had some support from one of the authors who sort of helped with actually getting the book over the line and the last few months, of getting it to the point of being a physical book that you can now hold in your hands. And I wanted it also to be like a sense of a collaborative venture. So I think often what can happen with more traditional publishing is the majority of voices are at the publishing house and the author is one voice. And I wanted to sort of tip that. So the authors were the biggest and loudest voices. And then the mechanism of publishing, it was the, was the vehicle rather than the thing that got the most attention and the most resources.

>> Ruin Willow: Hm.

>> Speaker B: So, yeah, so I think s. That's where my decision making came in quite strongly. And I have to say I'm goingn. I don't know if we'll show this or not, but it's a beautiful book, like it is. Y. I was saying to Butter the other day, you know, the actual. The book is so beautiful that I think it really offsets some of the more edgy writing within it. And one of the things I always like to do is create a safe space for us to explore these topics and issues, some of which, you know, can be experienced as taboo and all that kind of thing. And so it's almost like the book, the physical book itself is a container for these ideas and voices and stories, and it's kind of like a safe container. And again, I didn't want to relinquish any of that control. I wanted to feel that I could give the assurance to the authors around the safety. Because, as you say, this is vulnerable writing. These are people sharing an intimate part of their lives. And I have been blown away by their courage and, their willingness to sort of hold this vision with me that we can talk about these things, we can bring these things out into the light, and we can do it on our own terms, you know. And so, yeah, all of those factors went into the decision making. And so far I'm pleased with the decision I made. If I get an offer from a major publisher who wants to publish it g me, lots of money, I will take back.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, but you know that, you know that there is something to that because they already have an audience, they have means that, that we may not have to get it into more hands. So I don't think that that's ever a bad thing. But like you said, you know, it already exists now. So if they were, you know, I don't know if they would edit at that point or not, because it already exists. Right. Like it is what it is. So you're more safer to not have stuff chopped out.


One thing I want to ask, when you said indie publisher, do you mean small publisher

One thing I want to ask, when you were talking, when you said indie publisher, do you mean like small publisher when you say indie?

>> Speaker B: Yes. So like small independent publisher. Yes. Yeah. yes. And then of course we've also got platforms now like Theo Reads, where so, so sort of bringing in that, again, that attitude of enabling the author to retain their voice and to retain the meaning and the power and all the things that go into writing this kind of content. So yeah, I think we have more options now, which in some ways maybe makes the decision making more difficult, but also allows us to bypass some of those, barriers that would stop us otherwise from, from publishing.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. And you know, Theo Reads, I don't think there's anything out there like it. Right. Like there isn't anything that you. So for people who are listening, this is something where you can, you can like cater to what you want. Like you can select certain tropes, topics and they're not going to be taboo. Like you go on some of these publishing platforms and they will hide stuff because they might publish it, but they might hide it. So that's not going to be the experience on Theor. So it's very author forward, it's very author supportive, individual voice, diverse voices. So I don't know that there's anything out there like it.

>> Speaker B: Yeah. And it really feels like the way forward for me, this bringing voices together because we have so much separation, you know, we have so much othering that that's them, this is us. And so these platforms which bring together this diversity, I think is definitely the way forward. And within that, of course, as you say, there's choice. So people can filter out things that they, they don't want to read and things that they do want to read and Things they might be curious about and what level of spice and all that kind of thing. Which. Yeah, I mean, what an undertaking to create. I'm soressed.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh absolutely. but there's going to be no this flavoring of oh, this is good and that's bad. You know, it's going to be. It's just more black and white. This is, you know, you pick your words.

>> Speaker B: Yes.

>> Ruin Willow: You pick your. Ok and you pick your nose. And you are okay with that. And it's not shamed. It's not. Oh, you want to look at that. You want to read that. It's s not shaming.

>> Speaker B: Yes. Yes. S like an even playing field. Y.

>> Ruin Willow: Exactly.


You also write fiction obviously. Do you have a preference between the two

So this is a non fiction work. You also write fiction obviously. Right. So what's the difference for you have a different mindset when you're sitting down and write non fiction versus fiction. Do you have a preference? Which one do you like better or is it too hard to pick?

>> Speaker B: I love both. I really do love both. I think erotic fiction is probably my first love, because I started writing erotica when I was in my early 20s. And I wrote it as a way of exploring things for myself, as a way of seducing potential lovers. You know, I slipped them a story, which I'm still amazed at myself. Like my younger self, I was braveing to do that. And I think that's like a common thread, like a continual thread that's woven throughout my life. So I've always written erotic fiction and I keep coming back to it. And I think one of the reasons I keep coming back to it is because there's always new things to explore and to think about and to play with. And as I said, you know, in relation to the personal essay piece that I read earlier, erotic fiction writing has also been a way for me to stay connected to my sexual self. Even during the times when physically, in an embodied sense it maybe felt harder to access, but I could still use my imagination, I could still play with, with characters and ideas and words and create something. And for me there's also a real sense of like that creative energy. So when I'm creating, when I'm writing, it fills me up and it gives me, know it gives me a way into my sexuality. If I think about sexual energy and creative energy being one and the same, then I can sort of. I talk about it as using the doorway of one to access the other.

>> Ruin Willow: I like that.

>> Speaker B: So yeah. So I think erotic fiction writing is my first love and I'M now also, you know, as I've got older and been through different things, I'm now talking about writing expansive erotica and focusing on imperfect intimacy. Because I think as a younger writer, I. I wanted every scenario to have like, these elements of perfect sex, know of a union and orgasm and, you know, all of these wonderful things happening in a very particular way. Now I'm thinking, oh, but. But what, what if, what if. And can we push the edges even further? Can we explore even further? So one of the stories that I've had published this year in, Best Women's Erotica of the year, volume 10, that story is actually about a woman in her 70s. She's, she was, in a relationship with another woman. And her partner, sadly has died. It was a kink relationship. It was a dominant submissive relationship. And now she's on her own and she's reliving some of those times they shared together as a way of keeping her connection to her late partner. So, you know, as a younger writer, I wouldn't have thought, like, where, where's the eroticism in that? But actually, actually when we tap into the deeper levels of eroticism and intimacy, we can create something which feels incredibly intimate and sensual and sexual. And I mean, I don't know how other people will experience that piece of writing, but certainly for me, it gave me what I needed from the erotica experience. so, yesah. So that's where I'm at now. It's so of like, oh, where else can I go with my erotic writing? And almost like a treasure trail, you know, where. What are the clues? What should I write about now?

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, I love that. Because that kind of story helps us realize there is no strict definition of intimacy. You can have intimacy with yourself. People always think of it, intimacy. And I think the first thing that comes everybody's mind is with another partner. Like you could have an intimacy with your memories with yourselff and masturbation. I think it helps maybe people open up their minds to thinking intimacy can be so many different things. Again, thinking outside the box, it makes me think of, I just had this woman on who just kind of blew my mind, and she calls it, vaginal gymnastics, right? So you can learn the vagina is a muscle, right? So you can like, train it and improve those muscles to do different things. And the story she loves to tell. The reason I'm saying this is because of your story. She has a client that works with her and she's in her 80s and she has exploded in her ability to enjoy and have sex. In her 80s, in the, retirement community, she's having sex with all these people. And I just think it also illustrates, like, what you're saying to Our sexuality changes throughout our lives, but it never goes away.

>> Speaker B: Yes, yes, absolutely.

>> Ruin Willow: It's always there. It just might change a little bit. It might, but it' always her. Even when it's being suppressed, it's still there.

>> Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And. And one of the authors in Sex Meets Life, Joy Moats, she's in her 70s, and her piece is called Horny Old Woman. And it's basically a call to arms, saying, you know, I'm in my 70s, I'm still enjoying sex. I want to enjoy and celebrate this part of me. And yet all my friends and family in society are saying, you're too old. You're too old to be horny. And she's saying, no, you know, this is so important to me. And, it's sort of like that reclamation of who she is and wants to continue to be. So. Yeah, I love that piece as well.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. And we do have this horrible thing about, you know, people think sex is for the young. And it's like, I think, you know, you look at those people and be like, okay, if that's what you believe. Do you want someone to tell you that when you reach a certain age, you can no longer have sex? Do you really want that to happen to you and don't do it to other people? We need to shed that because that'that's so harmful.

>> Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I always think, you know, we don't expect anything in our lives to stay the same. So the clothes I'm wearing now are not the same clothes that I wanted to wear 20 years ago. I mean, they've not, maybe not changed that much. But, you know, we allow for things like our fashion to change our music taste, to change our favorite author to change, our favorite food to change. We allow all of these things to change and evolve. We're not giving up on them. We just say, oh, you know, I can't believe I wore that when I was 20. I would never wear that. But.


Can we allow our sexual selves to evolve and change

But can we do the same for our sex lives? Can we do the same for our sexual selves? Say, you know, this can evolve and change. It might not look the same as it did when I was younger, but that doesn't mean I have to. The equivalent would be, stop wearing clothes, stop eating, you know, stop listening to music, stop reading, stop all of those other things I enjoy. And that, are part of me. So, yeah, we can allow it to change.

>> Ruin Willow: Absolutely.


The book explores intimacy and reclaiming desire

And so, in talking about your book again, what are some themes of the essays and stories that people could expect? Like, if someone wants a little bit more of an idea, can you. Some of them like just their tropes or, you know, topics?

>> Speaker B: Yes. Yes. So I started off by asking people I knew to write stories for me. So either people who I knew through their writing or who I had a personal connection with. So, the stories that have come through are around things like menopause and aging, being a caregiver, being disabled. But there are also a lot of what I would call, like the common thread through it is around this reframing, intimacy and reclaiming desire. So no matter what age or stage or life circumstances you find yourself in, the tropes or the themes that come through in the stories, are people saying, so what does intimacy mean to me? What does it look like to me? How has it changed? Where do I want it to go from now? Even with all of these other circumstances and things going on in my life, some of which may be temporary, some of m. Which may be longer lasting. And so, for example, there's one that the book starts with. A person who is non binary, has been married to a man, for 30 years, has always felt like intimacy was really int. Being intimate. Like creating intimacy was a very vulnerable thing. and they talk about it not in terms of the physical act of sex or intimacy, but the emotional act of intimacy. And here they are sort of 30 years on within this relationship and opening up to the fact that they have sexual attractions to other people. And those are people of other genders. And so what does that mean? And at this age and stage in their life, can they reconnect with the pleasure of their body and really, like, embrace that feeling of. Yes, getting close to somebody is a scary, vulnerable feeling, but it's worth it. For what? For the payoff, you know, and for what they've missed out on all these years. So they're kind of exploring that topic. And there's another person in the book whose partner, During their relationship, their partner reveals that they're actually asexual. And so what does that then mean for their relationship? What does sexuality look like within their relationship? And that they talk about sort of exploring, opening up and embracing their own queerness. Their partner then also comes out as trans. So it's kind of. It opens up even broader. What is sex? What is intimacy? What is relationship? All of these ###s of questions. so, yeah, those are some of the stories and the themes that come through. And there's also beautiful piece of writing, in the book from a young, trans, non. Binary person and talking, and it's a sort of speculative fiction and talking about this futuristic view of trans sex and what it might be like. And this is sort of like their way of exploring how they can feel more connected to their body and more connected to other people through their body. and then I'll share one more. somebody has written in the book about there it's experience of always finding sex to be easy, but they want to sort of dial back and get to know people more. So they join a cuddle club and they're now like exploring what does physical contact feel like when sex is actually off the table. So again, thisrt of like creates an environment where they can start to ask questions about what is sex, what is the meaning, what is it, what role does it play in their life? Who are they, what choices are they making? All of these kind of things. So, I mean, I think these are incredibly generous stories because the authors are letting us into this, this part of their lives.

>> Ruin Willow: Absolutely. And that last one really hits the thought I had was to having sex is different than having intimacy. You can have sex without intimacy just fine. Some people have to have the intimacy to be able to have sex. There's all these different things and you know, for us to always. Our cultures make us think it's one way. Like, you're saying it's not one way. There are s so many different ways. And you know, this kind of a book really helps open that up and help people be like, yeah, this. I don't think of it the way that my culture thinks of it, you know. Yeah, yeah, it is important. It'as important stuff.


I think Sex Meets Life is wonderful and all the authors are incredible

>> Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. I hope so. You know, I, obviously I'm championing the book and I think Sex Meets Life is wonderful and all the authors are incredible. And I have to say the quality of the writing also is superb. You know, it's really good writing.

>> Ruin Willow: You see why you chose a butterfly too, because it really fits.

>> Speaker B: Yes, yes, absolutely.


Meg John Barker writes about how caterpillars turn into goo

this sense of transformation and change. And one of. So the forward is by Meg John Barker, who picks up on one of the themes in the book, which is this sense, of being in the, we're calling it the messy middle or the goose stage. So when the caterpillar has gone into the cocoon, has dissolved into this sort of goo, hasn't yet reformed into the butterfly. But. But being in that middle stage is also, you know, it's still valid. They don't know what they're going to become. They're not who they were. They're not yet who they're going to become. So, yeah, this. Almost like this. This place of possibility M which I find really exciting.

>> Ruin Willow: The goo matters. It does. I never really knew that they turn into goo. Do they really turn into do?

>> Speaker B: Yeah.

>> Ruin Willow: Apparentsh what an amazing miracle.

>> Speaker B: It really is, apparently, that, like, everything just sort of dissolves. S the former structure dissolves and they're just sort of like, yeah, goo. And then somehow this, you know, incredible miracle occurs that it formed all of these elements form into something that turns into a beautiful butterfly that can fly.

>> Ruin Willow: That's incredible. I mean, is there any other animals on the Earth that can do that? I don't really think there are.

>> Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it is extraordinary what goes on.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: And also the idea of it'you know, it's happening in the chrysalis or the cocoon.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: We can't see it, but it's opening. And I think that's a lovely theme as well. You know, all these things can be going on on the inside of us that somebody on the outside might not recognize or see, but we're experiencing them.

>> Ruin Willow: And we'll probably never know because I bet the second someone tried to put a camera in there to watch the goo changing, it would die. So it's a mystery that'never ever be. Will never, ever know. You just have to accept that it's a miracle.

>> Speaker B: Yes.

>> Ruin Willow: All the scientists around the world like, m How can I get in there and watch this process? I don't think you can. I think you would disrupt it and wreck it just by going in. And it also. What a beautiful metaphor for life. Don't let outside influences get in your goo as you're transforming it. Be your goo, sit in your goo soup, you know, stew in it, marinatee in it. Be your goo. And that's okay to be your goo, because you're in transformation, but don't let other inside, outside things come into your goo. I like that.

>> Speaker B: Yes. I like that. I see a whole T shirt range. Be in your goo.

>> Ruin Willow: Be in your goo. Everybody be like, what? What does that mean? That sounds like a great T shirt.


We haven't talked about your writing process very much

So let me ask you this, because we haven't talked about your writing process very much. Do you have a way that you normally write a time of day snacks that you have, or, you know, Are you a plotter versus a pantser? What are some of your things about your particular writing style?

>> Speaker B: Yes. So I cannot write without tea. I have to like, I am definitely. I have a bit of a problem with tea drinking.

>> Ruin Willow: Like I love cups of tea.

>> Speaker B: So, and I've recently started like really in making almost like a moment of the tea. So like nice loose leaf tea and a teapot and I pour the tea and this. And if you, if anybody goes to my Instagram, you'll see every so often I'm like, look at this tea.

>> Ruin Willow: This looks fantastic.

>> Speaker B: Cal.

>> Ruin Willow: Celebr of tea. Yes.

>> Speaker B: So I always have a cup of tea. I'm quite old school that I, I don't like laptops, I like, like desktop computers, I like notepads and pens. I often start a story with an idea or a phrase or something that I teach in my erotic writing classes. Is the question what if? So I start off with a what if statement. So you know, what if, a 70 year old who'd been in a long term kink relationship was on her own? Like how would she still tap into her sexuality? And so m. I start with that. I also, as I said earlier, I write a lot to explore questions and curiosities that I have for myself. So some, if not a lot of my writing is informed through personal experience. and then my writing also helps me to create personal experience. So I think that always in the back of my mind there's also sort of an element of is this, how would I feel in this scenario? Like m, is this something that I want to give my time to exploring and give my creativity to exploring. but I have to say I don't do as much erotic fiction writing as I would like to. I go through phases, I think, depending on what's going on in the rest of my life as well. And this is where there's all of these overlaps because at times when, you know, if I'm on holiday or I'm feeling quite relaxed or I've been having some great sex in my real life, you know, I may feel more inspired or inclined to write. And the flip side of that is times, as I said, when I'm finding it harder to make that physical connection with my sexual self, writing is a doorway in. but I think one of the things that I, again as I sort of got a bit older is really using writing and my plot lines is a way to explore healing. And I use healing in the broadest sense of the Word as we have been with intimacy. You know, just this sense of whether it is healing from shame or healing from physical pain or illness or whatever it might be, or sadness or whatever it might be. It's just like a way to bring pleasure back. Yeah, yeah. And I love the process of writing when I feel that pleasure returned to my body. That's when I feel like I've tapped into a vein of gold, you know, when I can actually feel it. And this sort of again, links back to the reading I did earlier about being embodied and being a attune to our embodied experiences as well. So it's not just writing from the head or even just writing from the imagination, but it's writing from the body.


So you're probably not someone that writes an outline before you begin to write

>> Ruin Willow: So you're probably not someone that sits down and writes this big, long, extensive outline before you begin to write. No, no.

>> Speaker B: Right.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, neither am I. I have done.

>> Speaker B: Once I wrote a comedy novel, ah. With I don't think there was any sex in it whatsoever. and I actually really enjoyed mapping out the whole plot of that. I did a big, big, had a big sheet of paper and I did it, ah, like words and images that mapped out the whole plot. And then I would write a chapter each time I sat down to write. And that I really enjoyed like having it mapped out. But otherwise I think within erotica because it is this, this deeply intimate explorative process and probably more character led. So where what are my characters telling me needs to happen next rather than what am I telling them to do?

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, that's very much how it is for me too. Like I sit down with a little bit and sometimes I may have more framework than others, but yeah, it'the characters are driving it and it's a sensual process. It's. Imagine diving into imagination, just letting your mind flow, your consciousness flow a stream. When I was younger, someone told me that they think I write in a stream of consciousness. And when I was younger I was like, I don't even understand what that means. But now I finally understand what it means because just being in it and doing it more, it made more sense to me. But back then I was like, what are you talking about? What does that even mean? But yeah, I think it's also being a paner. You're in the consciousness of your characters and whether you are or you think you might direct it, but that doesn't mean that's what's going toa happen.

>> Speaker B: Yes. And I think I've got several stories that I've started and then Got stuck on because I feel like the character's not talking to me.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. I've heard so many authors say that. ye.

>> Speaker B: It's like, no, I'm not going to tell you what I want to happen next do I'm not ready to tell you. And it's almost like I just have to sit and wait for them to open up that on the shelf.

>> Ruin Willow: Y that one says I almost sit on the shelf and you're gon toa leave me alone for a while till I'm ready to talk to you. Yeah, I know I've heard a lot of people that. And I think it's really interesting too, how you know, it's all writing, but you're right. And when you're writing a different genre, sometimes it is a different process, a different experience, a different approach. But I still tend to not be one who writes big outlines. Whichever genre I'm writing in, whichever subnre I'm writing in, I don't tend to write a lot of pre stuff know. I'm more like spontaneous in the moment, fly by the seat of my pants. But everyone's different, right? I mean's know. I just think it's interesting to hear so many writers. There's so many different processes. Like some people sit down me like I write for 13 minutes and then I stop and I take a break for five minutes. Then I work for 13 minutes and I stop. like I could never be that structured. I'd be like, I'm not stopping. I'm at a good point. No way.

>> Speaker B: Yes. And I think once you hit that state of flow and that, you know, like you're saying stream of consciousness and it makes me think of flow because it is like stream and river and everything.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes.

>> Speaker B: Like, who. Why would you choose to come out of flow until you were good and ready? And it's such an AM m even my tea will go cold if I can get.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, I've had that happen too her. I'm like, oh, wow. I haven't had a sip of this in an hour and it's frigid, you know, Whoops. I kind of forgot about it. Yeah.

>> Speaker B: And do you find, When you write, do you then go back and sort of edit several times or does it. Does it flow complete?

>> Ruin Willow: I can only tolerate editing it once in a short amount of time. Otherwise I absolutely. I'm like crawling out of my skin. I can't do it. I'm intolerant. I've already done this. So if I'm Going to re edit something. I need it to sit for a while. The book I just finished re editing, I wrote back in 2020 or something like that. So I finally just went through it one more time and I'm going to try to publish it somewhere. I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but I can only. I write it and then I edit it once and then I send it to an editor. I't. I have a really hard time going back over and over and over and over again because I almost can't even do it. I just. I can't even get myself to do it unless it's been sitting for a while, then I can probably do it. But yeah, that's kind of my limitation.

>> Speaker B: Well, it obviously works, so well done.


You teach Writing Desire, which is more than erotic writing

>> Ruin Willow: So when you're teaching your classes, talk a little bit more about that. What do you teach? How do you offer them? What could people expect?

>> Speaker B: So I teach a workshop called Writing Desire, which is, which sort of is erotic writing, but is more than erotic writing. So it's very much about addressing some of the things we've been talking about. So, moving past feelings of shame or taboo about writing about this kind of thing, finding the language that actually works for you, the language that's a turn on rather than a turn off, and then thinking about things like characters, plots, the aim of erotica, if you want to write an erotic piece, you know, do you want to write a piece which has the aim of arousing your reader? And if so, what do you want to arouse in them? You know, do you want it to be sexual tension, sexual arousal? Do you want to, you know what? Because again, I love broad concepts. And then we do do writing and different sort of writing practices. And as I said earlier, one of my favorite ones is the what if? Question, which actually came about. I've got a guilty secret, which is there's a show called Ancient Aliens. I don't know if anyone's heard of it. And they spend the whole show saying what if? Could it be? And it's all this speculation. And so I thought, well, we can apply that to our erotic writing as well. We can, as you say, like, you know, go out of the box. What if? Could it be? How? How might. And so we sort of ask a lot of questions of our writing to help push those edges. And I talk about supporting people to write to their edges because often I think, because so much of eroticism isn't spoken about, isn't written about, Unless you're someone who has sort of found a way in, it can feel, can feel a lot of vulnerability and self censorship about being willing to put these things on paper. You know, that's an admission. That's evidence. So how do we get beyond that feeling of a ie allowed? So. So we talk about permission a lot. You giving yourself permission to explore. so yeah, I love writing those classes. Ah, sorry. Running those classes. because I'm surprised every time by the work that the writers produce. Like it blows me away that there are all of these untapped voices and stories and ideas that have just been bubbling under the surface and waiting for an opportunity to come out. so yeah.

>> Ruin Willow: ###Ah this is why we're living in the most amazing time for writers in history. Never before have writers, storytellers been able to create something and disseminated on large volumes across the world. I mean, that's incredible. You know, years ago, storytellers were sitting around a fire telling a story and then it was just a little people in their little circle. Right now you can write something and you can send it around the world. I mean that's, that's huge. And one thing before I forget it, I want to say I love your sentence right to your edges. Like that's a great thing. And it makes me think of, I wrote this book and it's very, very smuty and very, very sexual and it goes a lot of places. And my favorite comment from a reviewer was once she meant as an insult. She said, Jesus fucking Christ, was this written by a 13 year old boy? And I was like, yes, I embodied that shit. And I got under your fucking skin and I loved that comment. I'm like, that is like the best. She meant it as a pure insult. And I'm like, fuck, no. I'm a woman in my midlife and you're saying this to me. I feel like I've broken some kind of like amazing barrier, this bubble that's been around me. And you're going to say that about my wrding. I'm like, fuck yes. That was like a triumph. And so I actually said that back to her. I'm like, well, thank you. That is most wonderful thing anybody's said my right. He was probably like, what? I'm trying to insult you. You know, take the inc. No.


We're talking about using words and claiming them

And this is also the claiming of things. I love that too. We're talking about using words and claiming them. Like you know, maybe 10 years ago I would never said the word cunt. Now I use it in my writing all the time, I have claimed that I do not consider that a bad word. I know there are going to be readers who are coming along, loving my story, and then all of a sudden there's the word cunt and they're triggered. Right. But for me, it'it's. Claiming that word. And I'm saying, this isn't a bad word. I like the word cunt. I like even, like the connotations it carries, all the history, all the nastiness, all the wonderfulness, the beauty of it. So I am going to include those words. And if I turn off some readers, then I do.

>> Speaker B: Yes, yes. And in my workshops with one of the initial premises is you write for yourself. Like, don, don't think at this stage about readers or audience or publishing or any of those things. Write for yourself. What does your sexual self want to share with you? And I also do, some guided meditations. And so we use a guided meditation called meet your sexual self to actually get into this zone of, oh, I can have a conversation with my sexual self. I can have a relationship. I can, you know, tap into. Perhaps some, like, inn a knowing that hasn't quite surfaced yet that will take me further to my consensual edges. because I know that some people say, oh, don t Qu. Don't go too close to the edge. But, you know, where's the consensual edge?

>> Ruin Willow: Right. Exactly. Exactly.


Have you ever faced any shame or censorship in your writing

Now, have youd. Have you ever faced any shame or censorship in your writing? And how did you go about navigating around or through that?

>> Speaker B: Yes, I did. So, you mentioned in the introduction earlier. Thank you. And my more than a memoir called Desire Lines. And I call it a More than a memoir because I use. I use stories from my own lived experience along with erotic fiction to explore these concepts of, we are set on a path of sexuality, by society, culture, you know, upbringing, all those kinds of things. and what happens if we say what path actually works for me and we start to question and we have curiosities? And I think this is almost like an inherent part of my queer experience as well as, like, asking these questions and curiosities. Because the path that was offered to me never fit, you know, as a, queer and kinky person, the path that was laid out for me was not the path that was going to bring me happiness. So when I, when, Desire Lines was published, I had what I called a vulnerability hangover. And one of the pieces in that book was actually exploring shame. And, you know, I was talking about Shame. And all these times in my life where shame had tried to trip me up. And sometimes it was just a small pebble in the road or on my path, and other times it was this huge insurmountable object that I couldn't go over, I couldn't go under, I couldn't go around. I had to go through. I had to go through the experience of shame. And so although it wasn't somebody else casting shame or criticism on me for that writing in Desire Lines, because I had been so vulnerable and shared so much of my personal experience, I was left with this feeling of, have I said too much? Have I gone too far? What are people going to think? I had to say to my, family and close friends, I have not written this book for you. Please do not read it.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. You are not the audience, intended audience for this.

>> Speaker B: This is for strangers. And, and it's five, yeah, five years now since Desire Lines was published. And I have to say that feeling of vulnerability has lessened over time because now, now I'm not the person that I was five years ago. You know, I've evolved and I have more to say and I have more to write about, which is what I'm sharing on my subtack. So, yeah, I think I've been, I've probably been my own harshest critic or my own, you know, shame. like I've been looking out for those, those times when I might have crossed the line or said too much or. But m. I haven't had somebody tell me, I Write like a 13 year old boy. That's going to be my new ambition.

>> Ruin Willow: I was like. And it was so funny when I read it. I was just like. My initial reaction was fuck yes. You know, like, I wasn't even like shamed at all. And I know that's what she was trying to do to me. And I thought that means I'm embracing is something that you areco. That person was uncomfortable with, obviously, you know, and it was, it is a very smutty book. There is a storyline, but it is a very smutty book. And you know, it was just fucking fun to write. And so I just, I loved that, comment. And you know, you. That is a word though, to people out there who are writing. There are trolls out there who are going to say stuff to you. You cannot take to heart what they say. And it's hard because we love the positive reviews, right? You can get a million positive reviews, but that one negative one really can just worm its way into your heart and Grow there and grow rot. So we need to get thicker skins and be like, you know what? That's just one person's opinion and move on. This is, you know, new writers, they get, they can get, paralyzed by that kind of stuff. And we need to get out of that mind frame, be like, not everybody likes even the big giant writers like Stephen Kang. You know what I mean? You know, so we need to get over this thinking that everyone's going to love us. Even the big, successful authors that are making tons of money, they have people that don't like them too. Y. Why would we be any different?

>> Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that sense of, like, knowing who you are and having, an inner strength is so important. And I know that in my everyday life I am caring, compassionate, kind, calm. You know, I'm a gentle person. And I know that in my writing I write some pretty full on heavy BDSM kink, you know, storylines with characters, much of which has been informed by my own personal life as well. And I can hold both of those things simultaneously. I don't just have to be one or the other. And when I know that, it doesn't really. Of course I'm always going to be affected to an extent, but if somebody comes at me and targets one part of me, I know the fullness of me. And so I know, I know I'm okay.

>> Ruin Willow: yeah. And I think this also comes with age because, like, when I was younger, like, you know, I would be much more knocked down by that shit. And now I'm just like, I don't give a fuck, you know, like, so I always say that to writers too, who are maybe younger'like, you know, just hang in there and keep going. Because, you know, midlife is actually very wonderful. I wouldn't want to go back. I mean, yes, you go back, you might have a healthier body, it might be easier to lose weight, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I wouldn't want to go back. I don't want to go back to that closed off self. I don't know. You couldn't really pay me to go back there.

>> Speaker B: Yeaheah. Similar. I kind of miss some of the bravado that I had when I was, young. That sort of foolishness that comes without live experience.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.

>> Speaker B: So now if I want to do something foolish, I have to kind of, like, own it. A lot more.

>> Ruin Willow: People are responsible.

>> Speaker B: Yeah. But I wouldn't go back.

>> Ruin Willow: No.


Is there anything you have for people about midlife that you haven't discussed

Well, is there anything that we haven't talked about and we also need to talk about, you know, where everybody can find your work and which we did mention in the beginning, but is there any advice you have for people that you haven't said or anything else you want to talk about and also where everybody can find you?

>> Speaker B: yeah, I would just say, you know, sort of touching on the whole midlife themes that I think as a generation, those of us who are at this time in our lives, we're in a really rich place of having a voice and talking about sex and sexuality and reclaiming our desire and reframing it. Even when we're in the goose stage still we've not quite emerged. And I think that's a really potent, powerful time. And that's kind of what I'm writing about and exploring in most of my writing, my non fiction writing now because I'm really curious about it. so yeah, I just, I guess it's sort of a shout out to anyone else in this life stage as well who might be thinking, I'm not who I was, I don't know who I'm going to be. Who am I now? Just to allow yourself to kind of sit with the not knowing. But it doesn't mean anything broken or that you have to give up or any of those things. It's like what's going to emerge and you can be an active agent in that. You know, we were saying we don't know what happens in the chrysalis. You know, we don't know how actively that caterpillar goo is reforming itself. So we can still be an active agent. But not to panic and not to think of yourself as broken.

>> Ruin Willow: I love that whole analogy of being in the goo. You know, like it's just. And you need to be in the goo by yourself.

>> Ruin Willow: You know, you need to block those outside things and be your own. Be your own goo.

>> Speaker B: Be your own goo. Not the T shirt.

>> Ruin Willow: I have all these T shirts. Not you, like put them out there and people can buy them. Like it's funny too, right? Okay, so where, where else ever would we can find you?

>> Speaker B: Yes. So if you're interested in any of my books, workshops, editing support, any of that kind of thing, that's my main website, which is annasansum.com. and you'll also find some free stories on there, some free resources, like the guided meditation I mentioned earlier. That's sort of like my home place. but my new writing, my new exploratory writing, which I call my living experiment of desire in queer midlife, that's on my substack account which is annansm substack.com and then of course my books which you can find on Amazon some bookshops will also source them for you. if you have a favourite independent bookshop that you like to order from and you can certainly ask them to source the books as well. But otherwise I'm afraid it is. Amazon is the main base at the moment and of course news stories on Theo Reads which as we said is in the is launching, is going live, is taking shape, is emerging from its own chrysalis.

>> Ruin Willow: It is, it is. It's going toa be a butterfly. So by the time this comes out it'll probably be m even more live than it is now because it's just kind of trickling out right now. But yeah, people can totally check that out and I think it's just going to be. It's going to. Is it also an interesting experiment that I think is going to be a really good one.

>> Speaker B: Thank you. Yes, yes, I'm excited about it and if people do want to follow me on Instagram I love that like I often share things like writing prompts on Instagram, I share different parts of stories, links to my subtack, all that kind of thing. So sort of Instagram for the day to day updates and then substack for the main new writing and then yeah, all of those books my back catalog if anybody wants to dive in and have a read.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes and I'll put the links to that, those down in the podcast show notes so people could easily click through and. Well thank you so much for doing this. This was really amazing conversation. I really had fun. It was really just, it went really amazing places and thank you so much for coming on.

>> Speaker B: Thank you. I've enjoyed it immensely. I love talking about all this stuff and you're wonderful. So thank you for, for having me was.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh absolutely. It was wonderful.


Your work on surrogate partner therapy sounds amazing. Is that uh, very helpful to you

Oh and the other thing I wanted to mention too, I forgot I've been thinking about this whole time. I forgot said your work is definitely very great resource probably for you to write about sexuality. Right. Because your actual work is associated with that. Is that very helpful to you?

>> Speaker B: so my day job work, I do health research on different health conditions of course knowing as we do that sex lives can continue throughout the age course and like ##span, and all that kind of thing and sex and disability plays a part in it. but my previous work around the surrogate partner therapy has definitely fed into everything I do from here on.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. Sounds like amazing work. I'd never even heard of that, so. That's really amazing.

>> Speaker B: Thank you.

>> Ruin Willow: Well, thank you so much. This was amazing, and it was wonderful. And I'm sure we'll meet up again someime and have you on again.

>> Speaker B: Wonderful. Thank you. And I look forward to reading, more of your work on Theo as well. Very exciting. Thank you.

>> Ruin Willow: Bye.