Breaking Taboos, Embracing Kink, and Pleasure with Dr. Nazanin Moali, aka Dr. Naz

Ep 560: Breaking Taboos, Embracing Kink, and Pleasure with Dr. Nazanin Moali, aka Dr. Naz of the Sexology Podcast.

Navigating Intimacy and Embracing Desire with Dr. Nazanin Moali. Join Ruan Willow as she engages in a captivating discussion with Dr. Naz, a clinical psychologist and certified sex therapist, who is dedicated to helping individuals and couples achieve fulfilling sex lives. Dr. Naz shares her unique journey from post-revolution Iran to becoming a trusted expert in intimacy and relationships in Los Angeles. In this episode, they explore the complexities of kinks and fantasies, the challenges of sexless marriages, and the importance of communication in relationships.

Dr. Naz emphasizes the significance of breaking down societal taboos surrounding sexuality, and how understanding our own desires can lead to deeper connections. Tune in for insights on fostering a more authentic love life and the transformative power of sexual self-discovery.

Timeline:
00:21 - Dr. Naz is a clinical psychologist, Certified sex therapist
03:47 - Misconceptions in society about what kink means
06:06 - Going to sex therapy can be a good tool for some people
12:59 - Even when you're dating, experiment with saying no to non sexual things
20:02 - Many women blame society for not being able to experience an orgasm
26:26 - There's nothing wrong with enjoying porn that you don't actually want to do
27:53 - The orgasm gap gets misrepresented as a knowledge gap
35:24 - Do you feel that midlife couples have less frequent sex than younger generations
40:05 - Being transparent about sexual experiences with your therapist is very important
47:44 - Part of your work is doing sex education for people struggling with sexual health
50:16 - So do you find yourself ever suggesting sex toys for clients too
51:46 - Your podcast about science of sex and pleasure
53:40 - Many people find boredom is a big issue in their relationship
58:16 - What advice do you have for people looking to improve their sexuality
01:00:30 - I want people to keep in mind that whatever you like, you're not defective

Quotes from Dr. Naz
"There's nothing wrong with that. But you definitely need to cherish your desires."
"Whatever you like, you're not defective. There’s a galaxy of people out there that are interested in that."

Find out more: Nazanin Moali, Ph.D., CST (she/her/hers) Psychologist, AASECT Certified Sex Therapist www.oasis2care.com
Creator and Host of Sexology Podcast http://www.sexologypodcast.com/
Facebook @oasis2carke
IG @sexologypodcast

Show notes created with the assistance of headliner app

Ruan's latest audiobook releases:
Never Say, Never Swing, Friends to Lovers https://books.ruanwillowauthor.com/neversayneverswingaudiobook
Protectors: A Warrior's Requiem, Chronicles of Protectors, Superheroes, music themes, time travel, sexy intimate relations https://books.ruanwillowauthor.com/prot

Transcript

Oh F*ck Yeah with Ruan Willow Podcast with guest Dr. Nazanin Moali, aka Dr. Naz. This transcript was created by Headliner app. It was not edited by a human so it has errors and misspellings. Email ruanwillow@gmail.com with questions.
Copyright @2025 Pink Infinity Publishing. All Rights Reserved.

Hello, everyone. I'm super excited to talk with this person

>> Ruan Willow: Hello, everyone. I'm super excited to talk with this person. She's really interesting and she's doing amazing things herself. So I'm really excited to get into that. But it's just so much fun to talk to these people and I love bringing these perspectives to everyone because we can learn so much from each other and it's a wonderful thing.


Dr. Naz is a clinical psychologist and ASECT. Certified sex therapist

I would like to introduce you to Dr. Nazanin Moali, Dr. Naz for short. And she has got an amazing, history. Okay, so first of all, she is running the sexology podcast which you can find online. And she's on Instagram sexology podcast and Facebook Oasis2Care, so you can find her there. Navigating intimacy in relationships can be messy, but Dr. Nas is here to help as a clinical psychologist and ACT. Do you say it that way? As sect right?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: As ACT. Perfect. You got it.

>> Ruin Willow: Certified sex therapist, Dr. Nas empowers individuals and couples to achieve the fulfilling sex lives and relationships they deserve. Growing up in post revolution Iran and Moving to the US alone at 17, she learned resilience and the power of owning your own story. Now based In Los Angeles, Dr. Nas combines her life experiences with expertise in couple therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy. Act to help clients rewrite their intimacy narratives and build confidence. With a compassionate science based approach, she breaks down taboos and encourages growth beyond comfort zones. Has host of the popular sexology podcast, Dr. Nas explores topics like reigniting passion, embracing desires, and challenging outdated myths about sex. So very needed. Whether guiding individuals are helping couples reconnect. Dr. Nas is your trusted expert for creating a full, fulfilling, authentic love life. And we're going to touch on the following topics. Dare to explore kinks and fantasy uncovered. We may even go into untold truths about sexless marriage and how to reignite this sp and even breaking the rules, the truth about consensual non monogamy. So those are the topics we may touch on. That's so much we might have to do more than one, right?


Rwan welcomes Dr. Nas on his podcast. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us

Welcome. I'm so excited to Talk with you, Dr. Nas.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Thank you so much, Rwan, for having me on your show. I love your show. I love the, breadth and depth that you bring to this conversation. So I'm very looking forward, to this episode.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, I'm really excited too. And you have a great background. So you're doing your podcast and you have your education and then your clients. Right. So you have all these different things coming together, which is very well rounded and just a great place to talk about sexuality from.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Thank you so much. Yes, I'M fortunate that, I'm able to, work with a broad audience. Like, part of my practice is, working with conservative community. But also I work with so many people from different cultures and different backgrounds. And what's interesting is how much commonalities we have around our sexual needs and desires across different, cultures.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, I mean, we're all people, right? I mean, you know, yes, we have our cultural differences, but ultimately we are all just people. And we're all made up the same way. You know, we have our likes and dislikes, but ultimately we're still all the same biology.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Right. I'm gonna pause. Do you hear lots of background noise?

>> Ruin Willow: I don't know.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Perfect. Because I think then people started chatting. I wanted to know if you want me to ask.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, right. Yeah. No, I don't hear anything.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: So sorry about that.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, no, that's, of course, work.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I just want to make sure you have good audio qual.

>> Ruin Willow: I totally get it.


There are misconceptions in the society about what kink means

So in your experience, I really love to talk about exploring kinks and fantasies. the. What are the biggest roadblocks for people that are trying, that want to do that, but they somehow can't do it?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Well, when it comes to kink and fetishes, there's just so many misconceptions in the society about what does that mean? What does it mean when we have different sexual interests, which creates roadblock in people accepting what gives them pleasure and also effectively communicating it with their partner. Thank God. Due to, technology now people have communities like FeditLife, different places that they can meet and connect. But still, I see so many people kind of have this internalized shame about what they like. I get calls from, clients that they say that, oh, I have foot fetish, and I've been married for 20 years, and I don't know to talk about with my partner, it was like 20 years. It is such a long time to hide that part of yourself. So I think cultural messaging and also, kind of internalized shame can be a big, roadblocks for people.

>> Ruin Willow: And I think it's so common for us to feel like some fetishes or kinks we feel like we have to hide, and people need to break through that and be like, you know, there's so many people that have these same exact kinks, you know, And I've even heard, I don't know, maybe you know, a little bit more about this. There's actually something biological in the brain that is linked to foot fetish, which I found just, like, mind blowing. That you know, it's not even necessarily just what we're exposed to. It actually could be our brains.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Absolutely. There's been studies showing that, that there's a kind of like a genetic component to this. So it's very limited. But whether it's internalized or it's like an internalized messaging or that's something we learn. I think there's nothing wrong with that. But you're writer's definitely studies around that.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, I'm sure it can be both. Right. But yeah, I just, I found it amazing that there was actually a potential biological link to it too. Like that's just like wow.


Going to sex therapy can be a good tool for some people

So when you are talking with people that are afraid, like this person you just mentioned, what do you say to them when to help them just kind of like open up. Do they need therapy? Are there things that they could just try?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Well I tell people first of all, communities are just so great. Right. Like finding a community can be very helpful. Going to a sex therapy can be a good tool because I think like sometimes people have this kind of internalized shame as we talk about thinking about I'm bad because I like this. They wanna change themselves. And like sometimes with some fetishes it's just not possible for people to change it. That's who you are and what you like. There's nothing wrong with that. And that kind of reinforce that messaging. So I would say like find community, do kind of work with kind of sexual Health experts can be very, very powerful and listening to the shows like this, right. Like hearing that like experts are saying that there is nothing wrong with that as long as's consensual. that's just part of our erotic map. And it's important for us to cherish our desires.

>> Ruin Willow: Absolutely. And one time I remember talking with someone and they actually thought that if they went to sex therapy that it would be like the therapist was trying to convince them to buy into a kink.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Interesting. Tell me more about that.

>> Ruin Willow: Well, they said something like well if my partner wants me to go do that, I think that the person is going to try to convince me that I have to do this kink with my partner. You know, like it's like they were going toa be like coerced somehow by the therapist. And I'm like no, it doesn't work that way. That's not what it's about.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: You brought up such a great point. Right. Kind of like our agency when it comes to sexual interests at times I also hear from People, we're going to talk a little bit about sexless relationship, but some couples that they don't want to have sex, right? Similar to that. If you don't want to have sex, like, no one should force you to have sex. If you're not into particular kink or fetish, it doesn't mean, like, you have to, integrate it in your sex life. You can communicate that this is something valuable and this is not part of my erotic m map. So I think it's really important to understand that, regardless of whether you're into something or not, you have to write to, like, what you like is as we talk about in sex therapy, I'm sure you have heard it. Just don't yuck someone else's yupah. Otherwise it's all good, right?

>> Ruin Willow: Like, we should be able to hold in our own spaces, our own kinks. Not that we have to share every single kink with our partner. I mean, probably there's gonna be some crossover where you can do some. Doesn't mean you have to do every single one. But for that other partner to hold space and be like, okay, you like that. I don't. You enjoy it that way. And, you know, like, have boundaries that way, where you can each still have what you want and still be together. I think that there has to be a respect there as well, instead of a shaming, like, like you were saying, a shame. Oh, you like that. You know, like that kind of an attitude. Yes.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And I think also, as you mentioned, that there is just like, it's important for people to be able to compromise in the bedroom. But sometimes with some people, for example, if you have partics fetish, that's what you like. It's hard for you to, have pleasurable experiences otherwise. For many people that have certain finishes. And again, if you are partnered with someone, it doesn't mean that they have to be in it or they have to be part of it. Many people choose to open up the relationship just for that purpose, that this is something you can enjoy with someone else, consensually. And this is now part of my erotic template. But when it comes to, like, for example, if we have a fetish, there is a kind of spectrum of things within that particular feish that you can engage, maybe you can talk about that fantasy. And that could be part of something that, like, your partner enjoys and you both experience arousal, or it could be have kind of elements of it in the sexual play. So, when it comes to good sexual experiences, psychological flexibility plays an Important role, but also knowing your own boundary and respecting it.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. And I think another way people could enjoy it is you know, perhaps listening to an audiobook or reading a piece of spicy romance or erotica, you know, or even adult films on those particular things. And then I think it's important for the other partner to realize that I shouldn't yuck my partner. Yum. Because they're being more fulfilled in their life. And so yeah, I just feel like there's a lot of that going on where people either get jealous or they want to shame their partner. And it's like no, you're, if you let them do this, they're having a more full life.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I agree. And I think the other piece of it is people feel that people are not in these scenes. That it's a slippery slop. Right. If I say yes to this then it's gonna end up like I have to say yes to all the other things that I'm not into it. and as you mentioned, psychological safety is really important like for any sexual experiences. Right. We're sharing our fantasy, our kings fetishes with our partner. We're just sharing it with them, with no hopefully pressure of them enacting on that. the fact of sharing something that's very intimate and vulnerable can bring you and your partner closer. So I think that's also really important. And knowing that there is a galaxy of option out there, it can at time give people more comfort with experimenting and being more open minded. Because I have clients that they say like when we meet alone, when I work with them as couples, they say like I'm curious about this at times but I'm kind of scared if I don't like it then my partner will force me to continue doing that or I will feel pressured. So I think when we have this kind of approach it in the place of curiosity and non, pressure that can invite our partner and help our partner to be also more open.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. Like you know, instead of seeing it as a threat, if you're more open to your partner, there's more chance of exploration, you know, and just respecting the. No respecting that. Not how you know, we need to get to that place instead of having to feel. Becausee I think a lot in our country there's been a lot in our culture and probably around the world too, there's an element of feeling obligated and I think that's where that comes from. Like you're, what you're saying if they say yes to this then they're obligated to do more. No, we need to respect our own voice and be like, no, this, no.


Even when you're dating, experiment with saying no to non sexual things

we need to respect our own. No.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Right, absolutely. And that's one of the tips that I give my clients that you're dating. Like even when you're dating someone, experiment with saying no like non sexual things and see how good they are with appreciating and honoring your boundaries. Because I think that there is at times this misconception that you have to persuade someone to change their mind. Or if you bro like old time that they were saying that women are not honest about what they like, they say yes, no, but it meanses all of those things. But now this is new era. We know that consent is really important. And also when you are kind of coming from this place of I truly accept and honor you and your interests and I'm not gonna push, you pressure you. This is just an invitation. It can create so much safety and it often leads to so much more openness when it comes to sexual experiences.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. Because when someone feels safe, they're gonna relax more. But if you feel like anything is a threat, what do we do? We clench down and we close down and we close up and like no. Okay, well I'm just not even going to go there. So you're really doing your partner and yourself a favor if you do that. But it's hard for some people to unlearn this thing, of feeling like they are obligated to do what their partner wants or be this or be that. I think it comes from having a confidence. And I feel like when I was younger I did not have the confidence that I do now. And I think that's important for young people to hear too, is that I wasn't confident. I wasn't nearly as confident as a younger woman than I am now. And so that influences my sexuality and my relationships too.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I can't agree more. I kind of reflecting on my own sexual history. Right. I think when I was younger it was all more about performance, how things look like, am I making a right noise? How does my body look like? and right now after doing all of this work and I'm in my 40s, like it's just all about how it feels inside my body, how do I feel? I don't care how I sound, I don't care how it looks. And I have so much more experience, better experiences. Because there is something kind of visceral when it comes to sex. Embodiment is really, really important. And where we are in this place of'hyper vigilant. Because we're thinking about, oh, God, I said yes to this, sexual behavior. Maybe I said, like, okay with fingering, like, anal fingering. And now my partner were gonna push me to have penetration, like, full penetration. That kind of, like, gets in the way of me relaxing. But if I know that my honors this, that just makes a change. Huge difference.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes. And I think that is just going toa lay the groundwork. It's hard to come back from the other way, though. Like, say someone is forcing you or coercing you. It's hard to go backwards. Right. And get to, you know, like, that is much harder than doing it up front.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I agree. And, I have couples that are coming into me, and, they're married. And, like, I've seen it a lot of time, like, two, three decades later, they're not comfortable with their partner, or they have resentment because they felt back then when they were younger, like, they said no, or they were, like, they were, ambivalent and their partner pushed them and having some sexual experiences that they didn't want or they were not. Hell, yes. And now it just gets in the way of them having pleasure with the partner. And the partner is there. They say, I'm so sorry. They're trying to repair their own therapy. But it's so much more easier when you are kind of, like, working on boundaries, communicating boundaries, and maybe kind of like, making sure that the partner, is really interested to doing things versus doing repair. Of course, repair is possible, but it's much easier if you're doing it and being more intentional at the beginning.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, yeah. And I think, too, you know, it might take a long time for that person to feel actually comfortable after they've had that damage done. Because some of that stuff can be traumatic. And then it's just there. It's like coloring your relationship. I can totally see how. And that is a thing you probably see a lot with people in midlife. Right. Because they've already had all these experiences and baggage, and they've had crap happen that is not good. And then sometimes it can carry to other relationships.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Dep.

>> Ruin Willow: You know, damage is damage. It doesn't just go away because you're with a different partner. It's there.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Yes, yes. And our body remembers that sometimes people try to kind of like, push it away. They say, like, you know, it happened in the past, it is what it is, but they haven't done the true repair with themselves. And, Maybe with the partner, but more importantly with themselves and with their body. And then now they have all sorts of sexual health issues. Whether there is painful intercourse, erectile dysfunction, low desire because their body is trying to protect them. Saying that okay, I don't wanna do this anymore even when I'm with a partner because the previous wounds they still in our body. So I think it's really important to be intentional. If there's been some issues, some challenges, some traumas, it's helpful if you kind work through those and pay attention to your body as it gives you messages like it takes a while for you after experiencing kind of like a crossing a boundary or violation or bad experience for your body and mind to heal.

>> Ruin Willow: I think too. I mean at least for me growing up it was much more acceptable for boys and men to have sexuality be more in the forefront. And it kind of made me feel like I wasn't worthy such things for many years. And so I didn't buy into the pleasure. I didn't even understand everything about sex and orgasms and my pleasure. And so I feel like one of my things I want to do is I want to help other women especially not live the path I lived because we miss out on so much. And y, yes, I'm totally different now, but I didn't feel like it was about me. And so I think young women especially need to realize it is about them too and their partners need to know that too. And live that, say it, live it, breathe it, do it.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I love that. I love it because I had similar experiences and I see it a bit I current with newer generation with clients that they see that somehow because of our society, male pleasure is front and center. Right? Like when it comes to orgasm, we have huge orgasm camp. Like men almost majority of time they experience kind of like orgasm.


Many women blame society for not being able to experience an orgasm

But it's common for many women especially in dating like hookup sex, dating experiences for not being able to experience an orgasm. And I think part of it, it comes from kind of like not owning what's yours. Right? Kind of like not being kind of like asking for what you need. Because society taught you that like oh, orgasm is not important or women's sexual health is not important. And I think goes back to our sex education, right? I think most sex education is abstinent based. We're telling people that o m, like don't have sex or if you have sex, these are the diseases that you might experience. Right? Sexth education needs to have a component of pleasure teaching People, pleasure is part of sex, and mutual pleasure is important.

>> Ruin Willow: Exactly. Like, I just recorded a podcast episode for this week, and it was a piece of fiction. And, and one of the things I say often at the end is talking about how we were created with nerve endings. We were meant to feel this pleasure. If we were not meant to feel this pleasure, we wouldn't have the nerve endings there like, m. This is just logic. This is just basic logic, right? We weren't given taste buds to not taste food. If someone came up to you and said, oh, here's your cheeseburger, but you better not taste it, don't taste it, don't enjoy it, we would be like, what are you talking about, you idiot? But then so many people buy into it when it comes to sexuality. I'm like, oh, oh, yeah, I'm not supposed to enjoy that. But our bodies were literally created to do it. So this is just mind blowing that we think this way as a commonality in culture. It's mind blowing.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And we would appreciate and do things differently if we know that sex is something is for our pleasure. Right? I think we were talking about a, challenging experiences people had. But sometimes when we're thinking we're doing something bad, right? Like, oh, I like this behavior, and it's not okay, because it's not what society say it's okay, then I'm gonna put myself in this situation that might. I'm not communicating well, maybe I'm doing it in a risky way and that also can, harm me later. Not because the behavior is bad, it's just because we're not valuing ourselves and kind of our pleasure in a way. Like, think about it as a gift. If you get a gift that you really like, you will take care of it. But if you get a gift that's crappy, you just, like, put it behind the clotht. You're not doing kind of like you're not taking care of it. When it comes to sex, to say.

>> Ruin Willow: That, makes perfect sense. And I think that people that aren't taking care of that gift are really missing out not only on the health benefits of pleasure, but the connection with themselves and their partner or partners. They're just, they're missing out on a huge chunk of life. And why do you want to do that? Do you really want to regret later in your life that you did not enjoy your sexuality? Do you really want that to happen? That's what I want to ask people. Is that really where you want to be?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I agree. And when it comes to Kind of like thinking about your like, life, like what kind of a life you want to live. sex is so much more about more than an orgasm. Right. That like, orgasms are great, but it helps you to build for many people just self confidence. This kind of feeling of, I got it, I'm attractive, I'm full of, my body is temple of pleasure, or I'm full of, pleasure, or many people find that o, I have the ability to give pleasure and that's a gift that I have. You have even studies that show that people that they have good sexual experiences, they earn more. It's correlational, not causational, of course, but it can impact so many different part of your life. So I invite people that if they have the desire, and then kind of explore that part of yourself. And reaching your sexual potential is really important. so. And there are so many different tools that you can use. And as you were talking about erotica or even like using porn intentionally and ethically can be a tool.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I have a hard time when everybody, you know, kind of poo poos it becausee I'm like, you can totally use it. Ethically, you can use it. It doesn't, it just has a lot of people throw a lot of ick on it. Like the whole, you know, they'yucking the yum of that. But it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't. And so that's a taboo thing for some people to break through. I think people cannot get past that. They get kind of trapped in that, which is unfortunate.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Absolutely. And I think people sometimes think about, oh, it's not a reality, but it's like they feel like, okay, it's like educating wrong thing. But porn is not sex education. Right. Sex education is sex education. I love reading rom coms, but that's not how I learn about love. Like a relationship.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. It's entertainment. And we can't. You know, the unfortunate thing is a lot of people don't get education, so then they do go to porn because there's nothing else. So it's their only way to learn. That's the drawback, is that. And two, I do want to say in defense, you could learn something from porn. You could learn a new technique, a new idea. Be like, oh, okay, well, I never thought about doing that. I can do that. So, it will introduce you to new ideas.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Yeah, it can be like a recipe book. Right. Like sometimes we're kind of like tired of, what we make at home and we're kind of curious about what's out there. And also it can be a tool. We were talking about people with king and fetishes, right. That like this is a way for them to kind of lean into that part of their pleasure and then kind of like also incorporating with the partner or for many people it's a way that you can enjoy it with yourself. There's nothing wrong with that Sol. Those experiences are important andalid and it gives them a safe space for them to lean into that experiences. So if the pointrn you're watching is aligned with your values and you know that it's not specifically accurate sex education. Right.


There's nothing wrong with enjoying porn that you don't actually want to do

Then that there's nothing wrong with that. Just when it comes to when people are kind of like confusing porn as form of sex education or you're thinking it's like traffic. So if you're paying for the porn, you're getting it from the places that are kind of like produced by people that are aligned with your values. And as an expert I would say there's nothing wrong with that.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. And there's nothing wrong I want toa say with enjoying an adult film or a video of porn that you don't actually want to do.

>> Ruin Willow: In real life conscious. Right.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Are just so important part of enriching our erotic mind. What we all know about mechanic of sex. Right. Like majority adults, like we are well verth. But what enriches our erotic life is like really immersing in our fantasies or kind of like incorporating them. Whether our with ourselves, with watching with things with our partner and kind of getting curious with that. And again there's so many people that they have fantasies that are taboo. They love the fantasy because it yaboo and they have no interest of enacting on that. So that's also something else that I want the listeners to hear. If your partner is into particular fantasy, it doesn't mean that you have to act on it like they just might be enjoying it because they're just like watching people engaging in that.

>> Ruin Willow: Right, Exactly.


I think the orgasm gap gets misrepresented as a knowledge gap

I want to bring up something that I know, I think you said that this phrase earlier, the orgasm gap. I kind of feel like since I can get myself very quickly some too peak with a toy, I feel like it's more of a knowledge gap than it is an actual orgasm gap. It's either you don't know how to climb as fast, you don't get the right stimulation. So for me it's kind of like I feel like it gets misrepresented by people a lot saying it's an orgasm gap, that women can't climax until 18, 20 minutes. That is not necessarily true. If I can get myself there in 30 seconds to a minute, it's not really a gap, it's a knowledge gap.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I agree with you. And I think that how we learn about sex, right. We're looking at this male kind of, dominated script, like even whether it's born or how we learn about kind of like what we watch in mainstream media is that what works for men, like from male gaze. Right. Then we don't. And they say like, oh, it's really difficult for women to experience, pleasure or women's orgasm is complicated. It's complicated because we're using the model that's not congruent with what works for women. So I think part of it is also come from society shaming women, exploring their body. As you were talking about, it's more acceptable for men to masturbate, but for women it's just like, it's another level of guilt and shame. So it's like less frequent, still frequent, but less common for, female telling me that they're coming in and they're masturbating, and they kind of explore that part of their sexuality, because of the negative messaging. And you learn what works for your body, as you said, when you're communicating with the partner. I think that that's kind of significantly close that knowledge gap. and kind of having this expectation that sex is about mutual pleasure as long as it's important for both of our needs are met. And there is nothing wrong with bringing the toy in the bedroom. Right. It's just another tool that you can incorporate and it can increase everyone's pleasure.

>> Ruin Willow: Exactly. It's not any kind of a threat. And a lot of these toys can be pleasurable to both. You know, it'use. there's some people that think, oh, those are all just toys for her. Or women with a vulva that's only. Or people with aolva that's only for that particular kind of person. But that's not true. Not only could your partner use it on you, it could even find pleasure using it on themselves. And isn't it amazing to help your partner come to pleasure? I mean even just that should be celebrated instead of, you know, like you said, the programming that we just are kind of just stuck in the muck of.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And that actually kind of similar to what you were talking about is helping both couples, both everyone, involved to experience more pleasure. Because one of the things that I hear from my clients often is that they say I want my partner to desire me, I want them to want me. So desire is something like you co create in that moment, right. Like maybe you're bringing that toy and that help with kind of like escalating your partner's arousal and they now want you more and then you engage more on something. So that is also can help with the whole entire experience versus being with someone that they have'experienced pleasure or they're kind of feeling that they're not really present because of they don't see kind of like their arousal is not building. So I would say it helps all parties involved. And you're kind of like using tools to build arousal.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. Like talking about the sexless marriages, I feel like there's a thing where there's a lot of women in midlife who don't want to have sex. And I think the reason is because it wasn't prioritized, it wasn't advertised by their partner, that their pleasure was important and the women are feeling like they should. It's not supposed to be important for them. So you know, it, it can be fixed obviously if we change our views about all this stuff. But it makes sense when you think about it. If I'm not enjoying something, I'm not gonna want toa do it. And I think the older you get, the more, if you're not enjoying it, the more you're like, no, I'm not going to do that. If I, if there's nothing in it for me and just having the confidence in midlife to say, you know, no, I don't get anything out of that, why am I going to do it? So this is why sexuality of your partner, especially female partners, needs to be prioritized. If I know someone is wanting to make me climax, that is a massive turn on right there. Like you said, desire. I desire you because you desire to give me pleasure.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And you brought up such a great point. Like later in life we see a more desired discrepancy because what happens is that life is chaotic, right. We have so much stress or job, like for some people, children, all of these things and we depriioritize sex. So it becomes the last thing on the list. And then I often hear from the clients, the female clients that they're come in for couple therapy, say like, you know, I masturbate, but I'm not, not interested in the kind of sexual experiences we're having. Right. Because it's missing seduction. I want to get seduced. I want to kind of like feel desirable. And 10pm at night, after you put children in bed, after everything else, I'm not in the mood. And like my partner also is just like not putting the efforts, not always the case, but like it's really important to prioritize it and also kind of like exploring what kind of a sexual scripts scenarios. We'll excite you guys. Because one thing at times I hear that you were mentioning that oh, women need 17 to 20 minutes of foreplay. Maybe somey needed but like what are we doing during those times? Right? Because sometimes we do the same script that we've done for 20 years and partners checked out and it's just no longer exciting. What's the idea for foreplay? Just like building that spice and excitement. So it's really important to explore those to make sure that you're continuing to have good sexual experiences. Because like the fact that the desire is less right now, it doesn't mean that your sex life is over or it's nevernna be good again. but there needs to be some adjustments if you want to continue having good sexual experiences.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, there needs to be something more if you're not having good sex there something more or something you're missing. Right? There's something that could be worked on, looked at differently, paid attention to differently and just maybe like even, you know, even just like talking about it. Hey, I, hey, your pleasure is important to me. I want to make you feel pleasure. like you know, if a sexless marriage, if someone was saying that to the partner that didn't want to have sex already right there, they're like, oh, okay, you do care about me. This can be about my pleasure. So feel.


Do you feel that midlife couples have less frequent sex than younger generations

Do you feel like you have a lot of clients that are in midlife that are more in the sexless marriage than the younger generations? Do you see that?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I think so. So I know that there are saying that younger generations, there are studies that they have less frequent sex, but with my clients that they are in longer term relationship and they're kind of like a midlife, they're frustrated because like they've been in this dynamic for a while, right? Maybe higher desire partner communicate that like I wa wantna have sex. And the lower desired partner, they just know they don't want to. They feel guilty, they feel kind of like angry at times. But they say like I will have sex with you, but when it comes to it, their bodies say no. So it's a matter of kind of like communicating what are the roadblocks and like thinking about it as a team. Right. The sexual experiences that we're having or not having, it's not working. There is something here as a couple that is just like contributes to this dynamic as a team. What can we do to be able to have more sexual erotic connection? And if you haven't been intimate or haven't had good sex life for a few years, it will require more intentionality and maybe starting slower, but it will be something that you will be able to create.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, yeah. Like we're saying. And I think the attitude towards your partner, you know, as long as you're in a healthy relationship where you both of your needs, wants and desires are respected, you could get there. Right?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Yes. And again, if you feel like you're stuck, you can always work with sex therapists. Sometimes people think about going to couples or sex therapy is the last draw. I have couples that they say that only people are under verge of divorce, they go to couple therapy. But I tell them it's like, know you can go to a physical therapy when you have an injury or you can get a trainer to reach your ideal body. So it like it's your decision to invest on something that's valuable. but as long as there is willingness. Right. Kind of like that. Oh, we wanna work on this. There will be ways. There will be shows like your shows, like my show. So that can help people to get some resources. But if there's not willingness, because sometimes I see that the couple like one of the partners are ambivalent. And that usually comes from the place st they're so mad at the partner from something else that happens outside the bedroom. Years and years of resentment, frustration. And those are the issues that gets in the way of them wanting to be sexual with them. So that's also something it's important for people to keep in mind.

>> Ruin Willow: Exactly, absolutely. You know, and there's so much that people can do to make it better. And so like you said, people wait till it's in a bad place and it's like, you know, we don't have to look at it that way, you know, like maybe it's you know, you go to the gym and you add in an extra thing that you're working out. We can always make things better. Right. And it's, I just, that's kind of a silly way to think of it that anything you're doing to better something is when you're in a Dire state. Like we don't have to wait to dire states to do things.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And that also can add. Added additional complexity to the situation when we're waiting. When things are in a dire situation. I'll give you an example. At times people come for sex therapy because there's been a betrayal. Like one of the partner went out of the relationship. I just wanna say that there is nothing that justifies the betrayal. But what usually happens is that for many of my clients they were in sexless relationship or they didn't have the sexual kind of connection. And if at that point they were coming into a couple of therapists or sex therapists, they could have addressed the issue. But now that the partner went outside the relationship, there needs to be restoring of betrayal. Kind of like the trust, the restoring of the trust. And that makes the situation much more complicated and less likely for people to be able to repair.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, because thenn it isn't just about roblox to sex. It's robloxks to their life together. So you just added several layers to go through to even get to good sex again or first time. You know, maybe it'd be the first time, which I'm sure can happen with people too. Oh, so it's so hard.


Being transparent about sexual experiences with your therapist is very important

But you know, so when you're, when you're meeting with your clients, do you tend to meet with them individually and as a couple or you just like couples? But I think you said you meet sometimes with them alone, right?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I think it's very helpful. I know that like historically many couples therapists, they don't meet with people alone. But during intake or there are times that I notice there is something going on that we're not talking about it. In a couple therapy, I recommend people to maybe do one session or half a session alone because what I've learned that that can facilitate the progress significantly more. For example, I had clients when I like I don't know, 20 years ago when I started that the partner, they were coming to me for erectile dysfunction and we were using all these strategies and things to do. And then like seven months into it, like there was an issue that the wife of the client, the couple, the female partner, she had an emergency, she couldn't make it to the session. And only and only that was a session that I learned the FEMA male partner had no issue with erect allysf function. They were going to massage parlors and had other partners and they were not desiring their own partner. And it's just difficult for them to talk about it. For couples and individuals that they have, erectile unpredictability, that's often is s not the case. Right. Like, yeah, most of the time it's about kind of like the person's experience and this particular situation having that information was crucial. I was like, okay, now that I have this information that changes our treatment. So with permission and understanding of both couples, I do part of our work, individually with each person to facilitate the progress.

>> Ruin Willow: That makes sense. And like, wow, that's quite the secret for the. But you know, ye obviously didn't feel like he could say it. Isn't that interesting. One of those things you find out, you know, just on accident that ends up being quite valuable. Yeah, yeah.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And I think people say that, you know, in the defense of people that they never meet with individuals alone, that it will come out eventually. But that would be another. God no. Six or seven months. And people want to see result quickly. Right. So why not work on it now with having thatation.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. And it may never come out. Like if they've been holding a secret in for that long, it may never come out in their partner's presence.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And they were coming to therapy because they wanted to improve their sex life. So I think it's helpful that like, now that you share this information with a therapist, then they can help you with navigating this and kind of working on creating betterter sex life. and many people feel like, okay, we went for six months, we didn't getolved and they stopped going. But I think kind being transparent, especially when it comes to, sexual experiences with your therapist is really important.

>> Ruin Willow: Now, do you ever have people that come to you and they're just super shy about saying things like I could see that would be. That's got to be something to break through too, for them to be willing to open up and actually say some of these things out loud.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Yes, it's hard for clients and even clinicians. It's like I have colleagues that are also psychologists and they say, oh, I'm just embarrassed asking about sex. And I was like, oh my God, that's so important. And it'sssential part of one's sexual health. And yes, and for clients, of course it's very difficult. Many of my clients, they come from my podcast, so they have heard me talking about this thing so they feel more comfortable and open. but I also also kind of tell people that please let me know. I do this every hour. But if I say something that Makes you uncomfortable, please let me know. Because it's really important for the person to feel comfortable enough. Kind of like circling back to what we were talking about. Psychological safety in a therapy room also is very important. And part of it is going based on your own pace.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, for sure. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And you know, having trust from the beginning. Yeah, it's just so valuable so you don't have to do that backtracking of trying to fix things and get to a place where they actually feel comfortable. I can see how that would be really challenging for people that, you know, it's hard to say just in general and then to let go to a room with like, you, who, yes, they may have listened to your podcast, but you're essentially a stranger and to say these things, you know, how scary is that, right?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And what an honor. I have clients like that, female, like global owners that they say, these are the first time, this is the first time ever in my life I'm saying these things out loud. And I think it's really important to, see as an honor and such a wonderful opportunity to be able to hold space for people for these difficult emotions and give them opportunity to reflect on their desires. Because I think the more that we are, tuning into our erotic mind and the better we'll get about, learn about ourselves, the richer our sex life can be.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, absolutely. And again, I think it's so important that we don't ignore it. Like, like you said, you know, we do get busy and stuff, but I don't think we prioritize it enough.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Yes, it's like anything else. If you want to have good enough sexual experiences, you have to prioritize it. It's something that you have to invest in. some of my female clients, they come to me and they say, I have no desire. And I talk about like, desire is like a garden that you plant seeds inside. I tell people that as homework, listen to erotica, maybe read erotic, like romance novels and kind of think about it, kind of, fantasize about you being part of it. And the more we practice that part of ourself, that kind of muscle, it gets stronger. And we will experience more desire if that's something that we want.

>> Ruin Willow: I really like that because it helps. you know, it's got to help some of those women realize that they're not stuck and they can do things even just in their own simple life, like the book they choose or the podcast they listen to. You know, that is, that is just so doable Right? Like that's such a doable thing that has got to just feel kind of empowering because I'm sure a lot of these women feel kind of trapped, like I don't know what to do, I don't have, I don't have the desire. But there are things they can do, like you just said, and they're very easy things.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Yes. And I think the first part is giving yourself permission to want toa have better sexual experiences. It doesn't make you shallow, it doesn't make you a bad person. Orresponsible. It can just, enrich your life. It can help you be more creative, be more present, even in your body. I know many people, they heal their self image issues through kind of like experiencing better sexual kind of like, encounters. So small, meaningful steps that you do every day or on a regular basis can lead to significant changes long term. And your sexual health is important and your pleasure is important. So I think it's really important for people to treat it that way now.


Part of your work is doing sex education for people struggling with sexual health

>> Ruin Willow: Do you ever find yourself, because our education is pretty crappy in this country for first act ed. Do you ever find yourself having to teach people about anatomy and the pleasure of anatomy, especially for women? Because I think I went through most of my life not even knowing what the actual clitoris even looked like or how it functioned. Do you actually find yourself having to explain that to people? Is that a piece of what you do a lot?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: You get surprised that I feel as a psychologist, part of my work is doing sex education for people who are struggling with sexual health. many years ago I had this couple that the guy came to me for premature ejaculation and he tried everything with kind of numbing creams, all sorts of things, and he was devastated. I said, like, my partner is not able to, to experience orgasm. And then one day he said, okay, tell me, what do you do? What are steps? Like talk about it. And when we figured out that first of all he didn't know where was her clitoris and he didn't know how important it is for, his partner's pleasure for her clit to get stimulated. And then I gave them some information and resources and the next session, like, oh, you know, we were able to experience orgasm. This works for us.

>> Ruin Willow: So awesome.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Find the kind of like need to extend the amount of time that he has kind of like penetration. It's more about kind of like focusing on, as you said, like, sex education. What do I need to touch, how I need to touch it? And of course your partner is the best person to teach you these skills. But sometimes, unfortunately, because of the limitation, in sex education and kind of shame around talking about sex, they might not be able to do it or they don't know what works for their body.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. And know it makes me think of the example, like you were saying, how there's some women that might masturbate in climax, but if they're so focused on I shouldn't be doing this, this is shameful. They're not really understanding what's going on, so they're doing it in this cloud. Right. And then there's shame and there's regret. So if we can break through that stuff, we're going to just make so much more progress and it's just going to be so much more wonderful.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I agree with you. And I think you're going toa experience more pleasure. and having more pleasure can improve your mood, so it can really enhance all aspects of your life.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, absolutely.


So do you find yourself ever, like, suggesting sex toys for clients too

So do you find yourself ever, like, suggesting sex toys for your clients too? And which ones do you usually recommend? Like people start with, I tell people.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: That when it comes to sex tooice, I recommend them all the time, but I tell people kind of to use it on your own, like first when you come up solo experiences. Use it on your own. I'mnna see what works for you. There's nothing wrong with experimenting if you're more advanced, with your partner being a new toy that can on its own being exciting. But I think like, vibrators are great because as you said, they're one of those things that they can help your, the Volvo owner to experience orgasm. Also, it can help with, increasing arousal. For penis owners. There are some cockringingss that they have vibrated on them'just there's so many great galaxies of options out there. It's more important about, what do you want the toy to do? And kind of like, I would say, like to start with simple is better M. Yes.

>> Ruin Willow: And some of them are more scary looking. Maybe like, wow, what the heck is that? You know? Yeah, simple is probably the easiest beginning point. Yeah.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Because your partner is the star of the show. Right. Sometimes we have something new then that can be distracting from our experience. But there's just so many great options that depending on what younna have a kind of experience with your partner, you, can kind of like incorporate them.


Your podcast is more about science of sex and pleasure than anything else

>> Ruin Willow: Now, what kind of things do you tend to focus on on your podcast? Like if someone were to wonder what you talk about, obviously you talk about sexual health, but what Are some examples of things that you've done episodes on.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: We talk recently doing a how to series like exactly because of what you're talking about. Like we don't have, we don't get the tools. Like if we want to have like how to do oral sex, anal sex, how to bring sex, soize how to rekindle your relationship. Because again everyone, I feel like they can improve their relationship. Majority of people, yes. And sexual health is big part of it. So we talk about how to communicate about sex and our show is more about science of sex and pleasure. So we want toa make sure that we're incorporating the scientific part but in a way that's relatable because people don't care about specific studies. Majority of time it's a matter of how can I apply it to my sex life.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, I think it's interesting that you're coming from the science aspect of it, but that you know that that's also recognizing that this is our biology and biology is a fact in the fact that we have these nerve endings is a fact. So facts are, you can't argue with them. You know, like we have it. It's not like we don't, it's not like know we have this urge to procreate but we don't feel the pleasure of the procreation. So you can't separate. This is what I have a hard time with some people in the media where they try to separate the procreation from the pleasure. They're trying to separate sex from pleasure which doesn it make sense.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I agree with you. And it's just kind of complicate things. Right. Then just people feel more shame about pleasure.

>> Ruin Willow: Which we need to get rid of that shame. That's the part that's just really wearing us down.


Many people find boredom is a big issue in their relationship

So I saw on your website you have a free sexual bucket list. You want to talk about that real quick and talk about what that can do for people?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Well, thank you for mentioning it. Yes, many people find boredom is a big issue in their relationship. They say like we're no longer interested in having sexual experiences that we have or just not as exciting for them anymore. So it's really helpful if you create a bucket list with your partner or with yourself. I created the list based on the common things that my clients, they wanted to experiment things that everyone can do. and I invite people to even use it as a tool outside the bedroom to have kind of fun conversation with your partner. I'm Thinking about, let's each go through this list, separately and talk about what are some of the ones that are interesting to us, that we want to experiment. And I tell people, depending on your schedule, plan on doing something new once a month or once a quarter or at least once a year. Because that helps you kind of like being kind of experiencing that new experience with your partner can, bring more excitement and it can help you to feel sexually more excited with your partner.

>> Ruin Willow: Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. You knoweah like we're talking about, you know, couples that need to reignite or, you know, get some more spark back. And their sexless marriage, that's a great tool too because I feel like, you know, is it something that they write on? Because it's not like they even have to like, you know, at first. If you just need to write it down, that's it's a little bit less intimidating than looking at someone and saying some of these things, right?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Absolutely. M. You brought up such a point. It'just for sometimes for people it could be intimidating andable to write what they like. we've done the work for you. So there's list of so DVT'behaviors things that you can do from mild to medium to sizzalling and you can kind of like do it with your partner separately and sharing it. And that helps you to kind of like first of all, mark something that you might be it difficult for you to talk about it with your partner and you might get surprised that they also might be curious about the same thing. And even if you're just talking about it, that can help you to feel more connected and excited and kind of like sometimes you've noticed that there's something that your partner really want to do you maybe we can give an opportunity of how can we change this maybe to hell yes. What do I need to have in place to be able to feel safe enough to experiment with this?

>> Ruin Willow: Oh right, for sure. Yeah. That kind of seems like baby steps, you know, write it down and maybe talk about it or just kind of a, slow move into it. Because for a lot of people this is a very foreign thing to do. Right. To actually talk about it. Because so many people are taught through religion, through culture, we're just supposed to do it and not talk about it.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And this other misconception of if my partner loves me, they know what they need to do.

>> Ruin Willow: Right.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: One is a mind reader. And our sexual interests, it evolves. So when you kind of share what you like, something Like a bucket list, you're just marking it. Then you give ideas to your partner that okay, maybe my partner is interested in this and then maybe I can incorporate this in the bedroom so I can help you guys to have more of indirect communication.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. So I think the biggest roadblocks to that are people who aren't willing or they'rebivalent or they're just indifferent. Like you can get indifference too. So those would be the things that would probably block that. But if people are both willing, you know, talking about something doesn't mean you're going to do it either. Right? Yeah.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And I think you brought up such a great point, is that maybe when I'm going through the less I'm yes with someone else, but I feel it's a no with my partner. Right. Like we're thinking about like putting 50% of things I might be maybe or yes with someone else no to my partner. That's critical data. Right. Like it shows that there is something going on in the relationship that needs to get resolved. So able to feel more comfortable and to be vner your partner.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, that's really huge information. You're right. If they're interested in it or they're willing to do it, or they want to do it, but they's a no with their partner.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.


What advice do you have for people looking to improve their sexuality

So what advice do you have to give anybody else who is looking to improve their sexuality? Just in general, there any kind of tips that you can give people?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: My invitation for people is the first step is kind of identifying one thing that you can improve your sex life. It could be kind of as specific or as general. It could be, oh, I feel 5% more desire with my partner or I wanna be able to have kind of be more comfortable talking about sex over some people is like maybe I wan to learn. Able to learn multiple orgasms. Identifying, what you want and also creating a plan around it is really important because sometimes we are as we talked about, the number one issue that gets in the way of people wanting the sex life that they want is prioritizing it. Because when you prioritize it in this day and age, there's just so many free tools of online that will help you to be able to learn this skill. And my female clients, like listeners and clients, I always tell them talk about it with other friends. Right. I think that it's really powerful when you're talking about it and des stigmatizing it because first of all you're encouraging other people to be able about it and you learn so much. We learn so much from each other.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, totally. And if you're talking with someone and they've had a similar experience or they didn't even open to what you're saying, that right there takes away some shame from you. You know, like if you're immediate people that you're talking with, your friends and family or I guess this is friends in this case. If you can talk about that, it's already a door opening, like, oh, oh, okay, you feel like I felt or you're just even listening to me and not like running away, like I'm some ogrurt or you know, something like that.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: And you can see that some of the struggles that you have is more common than that. As you mentioned, it's like byproduct of society. And you can maybe create co createive plan that you can do accountability with that person that, oh, we wa wantna kind of learn more about this. Let's kind of build accountability around that between ourselves.

>> Ruin Willow: Very good, very good.


I want people to keep in mind that whatever you like, you're not defective

Well, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you have wanted to touch on?

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Well, I want people to kind of keep in mind that whatever you like, you're not defective. Like, there's a galaxy of people out there that they're interested in that they're embracing it. You just need to find your own tribe and people that are consensually be willing to explore that. Because sometimes what society shows as like or defined as normal, it's just so, so and kind of that leaves out so many people. So my invitation for you is if you like kink or fetishes or things that you think you're the only one, like investigate on finding your own tribe and that will make a huge difference.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, for sure. Yeah. If, if there's something you like, you can guarantee there's people out there that are the same. Yeah, it's not that isolated and it's not rare. Right. Well, again, we would tell everyone where they can find you and how they can listen to your podcast and learn more from you.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: they can find me@sexologypodcast.com and my handle on Instagram is Sexology Podcast. We have weekly shows that goes live every Tuesday and've been doing. I know that you've been doing it for a long time or many years. So there's a huge archive that people can go to learn more about things and help them to create a sexual plan for themselves.

>> Ruin Willow: Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This was super fun. I really enjoyed talking with you, and it's just great to have your perspective with all your experience and your studies and all of that. And so it's very helpful. So I hope that, people check out your podcast and can have better sex lives, better sexual health. But it's just like you said, it impacts your full life. It's just going to give you confidence, and that impacts your entire life. So it's a path to better life.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: I agree with you, and thank you so much for having me and all the great work you're doing to increasing sexual, information and, increasing people's capacity for experiencing pleasure.

>> Ruin Willow: Absolutely. It's so important. I think it's so important. Top importance in my book. Well, thank you, and you have an amazing day. Okay, bye. Bye.

>> Dr. Nazann Mowali: Bye. There.