Empowering Voices: The Indie Bookstore Revolution with Nicole from Bettie's Pages

Season 5, Episode 563: Empowering Voices: The Indie Bookstore Revolution with Nicole from Bettie's Pages Bookstore. 

Join Ruan Willow in this enlightening episode as she chats with Nicole, the passionate owner of Bettie's Pages bookstore in Lowell, Michigan. Nicole shares her journey of running an indie bookstore in a small town, where she strives to create an inclusive space that reflects diverse voices and stories. Discover how she curates her collection to ensure everyone in her community can see themselves represented in literature, and the challenges she faces along the way.

Nicole also shares invaluable tips for Indie authors to get their physical books into bookstores, how they should approach covers, marketing, and what book buyers look for. This is invaluable advice for those choosing to be indie authors doing indie publishing. Get the super important inside scoop from someone who sells books for a living!

In this episode, they discuss the impact of literature on identity, the importance of representation for LGBTQIA and BIPOC communities, and how indie bookstores are vital in promoting diverse narratives that big publishers often overlook. Nicole also reveals her exciting plans for a mobile bookstore.

Connect with Nicole and her bookstore: www.bettiespages.com

www.facebook.com/bettiespagesbookstore

www.instagram.com/betties_pages

www.tiktok.com/@bettiespages

06:43 I would get hateful comments on social media
11:16 Genres in your bookstore
16:21 Making covers for indie books
22:50 I'm loving seeing romance only bookstores
28:20 People who bash graphic novels on social media are just ignorant trolls
32:16 With audiobooks, people have an immediate reaction to voices
34:03 So what advice do you have for authors who are indie publishers
36:32 What do you think about the trend of indie publisher rising and getting more publicity
42:21 Books about love are often trashed because they're written by women
48:31 The Supreme Court has ruled that book banning is wrong
53:59 One thing Indie publishing has championed is content warnings at the beginning of books
57:19 readers like trigger warnings
58:50 weddings at your bookstore
01:01:09 Betty's bookstore is celebrating its 5th anniversary
01:03:50 Bookshop.org lets you support independent bookstores without using Amazon. Visit https://bookshop.org/ to buy books and support any indie bookstore of your choice anywhere in the country! They have physical books and now ebooks too!
Independent bookstores list and tips on getting books into their stores: https://ruanwillowauthor.com/tips-for-indie-authors-to-help-get-their-books-into-independent-bookstores/

Ruan's bookshop dot org shop: https://bookshop.org/shop/ruanwillowpinkinfinitypublishing

Transcript

Season 5, Episode 563:  Empowering Voices: The Indie Bookstore Revolution with Nicole from Bettie's Pages Bookstore.  This transcript was created by headliner ai and was not edited by human so it is not 100% accurate, there are errors. Please email ruanwillow@gmail.com with any questions.

Copyright 2025 by Pink Infinity Publishing LLC. All Rights Reserved.

Ruan Willow has a guest named Nicole who owns a bookstore called Bettie's Pages http://www.bettiespages.com/

Ruan Willow: Hello everyone, this is Ruan Willow. I'm super excited to talk to this person. I'm often talking to people who maybe write books. this person might write. I donn't even asked them that yet. But this is a different type of guest and totally still related to books and writing because this person owns a bookstore and I'm super excited to talk with him because I have not had a person on yet who owns a bookstore. I've had tons of authors. I've had all kinds of different people and so this is can to be really fun.


Before I get started though, I want to introduce you to my podcast. This is Ruan Willow. Oh fuck yeah. With Ruan Willow podcast and on Tuesdays I have my fiction episodes and Fridays I have my guests. So if you're watching this on YouTube and you want the spicy fiction, you have to come somewhere else becausetub doesn't allow it. So you go to any of the other apps and you can find it. I'm also on Substack. you can find me there as well and all the podcast apps. I am so excited. Now I'm just going to say your first name because you never gave me your last name, so I'm assuming you're just going with that. Everyone, meet Nicole from Betty's Pages bookstore. Welcome.

Nicole: Thank you. Hi.

Ruin Willow: I'm so excited to talk with you. How are you today?

Nicole: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. It's the middle of the busiest season for retail, so that's super fun. And I'm had to day off for me, which is an unusual thing. So I get to just like do other things, which is nice.

Ruin Willow: The bookstore is still open though. But you have the day off kind of a deal.

Nicole: Monday, is there a day that we're closed? That's the beauty.

Ruin Willow: Close.

Nicole: a retail in a small town. It's like everybody's closed on Monday so we all get to be close, which is nice.

Ruin Willow: That is nice. Yes. And then you're not like worried about being called about something or you know, some kind of disaster or something happening, right?

Nicole: Yep. It's my one day where any disaster that happens is all of my own making. Which is also what happens most days. It's the disaster of my own making.

Ruin Willow: But yes, that's so funny.


Bookstar runs a bookstore in Lowell, Michigan, which is very homogenous

So I am just curious because someone who owns a bookstar runs a bookstore. You have a lot of influence in your community, right?

Nicole: Yes. Yeah.

Ruin Willow: That is huge. Talk about that a little bit. I would love to know more.

Nicole: Yeah. So our store is in Lowell, Michigan. Which is in West Michigan, which is the Bible bel of Michigan. And we're a very small farmtown community of about like 4,000 people in town. And then like the greater township area, probably like seven or 8,000 people total. and it's very homogenous, you know, very heterosexual, white Christian that, and so being a bookstore and having access to literature and having access to all of these worlds that books can open up to you, like, I have a responsibility, in my opinion, to be able to, like, open these doors for people that they might not normally get to see. See. And as somebody who is queer, who grew up in a very similar small town in the 90s, I know what a huge impact it can be to get to see yourself on the shelf or in stories that you maybe never would have seen before. and so I take that. I take that very, very seriously. And that's really the heart of all of our decisions that I make at the store. particularly for curation is like, I want to make sure that my community gets to see themselves and gets to see more than, you know, what they would normally in it, which is. Caused some friction with some people in our town. They're not fans of that. but I don't really care. So I was like, all right, cool. and it did cause a lot of drama, especially as, like, 2020 in the summer of 2020 and all of that happened. There was a lot of, like, big feelings, and it was just like, all right, cool, whatever. And so I'm very passionate, about kids lit in particular. and I love to get to see all of these books that, like, oh, my gosh, if I had had these when I was a kid, my mind would have been blown in my whole world. Like, there's so many times I will be, like, sitting in the kids section, like, reading a picture book, just, like, crying because I'm like, that's so beautiful. That they get just like, there's like, picture books about love. And it has, like, you know, two moms or two dads or has, like, all of these representations. And it's like there'one that was like, sometimes the person that you love isn't nice to you and isn't good to you, and you deserve better than that. And I was like, we're teaching kids early, like, that they'they matter and all these things. Anyways, I get very excited about it, and so then I get very passionate about all of it. and so, yeah, ah, it's. It's a really, really cool thing to get to do. Because I get to have parents come in who are like, you know, my kid just came out to me, and I want to be supportive, but, like, I don't know how. Like, what can I do? And I'm like, u m, right, I got you. Like, you came in here, you're already doing great. Like, you got this. Here'some resources. And those are always, like, my absolute favorites. or I'll get messages, you know, and they'll be like, my kid and I came in and we had just this amazing time. And it was so great that we got to see all of these things. And, like, those are the ones. Like, I print those off, and we have a bulletin board in the store that says, like, pro. That Proof that people love us or proof that not everybody hates something like that. And I started at the height of when everything was dramatic. And so I just, like, tack those onto it every time. And it's just like, okay, this is why I do it. I got this.

Ruin Willow: Well, absolutely. And, you know, talking about that, the books like that. I didn't have books like that when I was a child either. And across the board, I think old children need books that say that someone's mean to you. That's not okay. Like, there's. I mean, there are maybe a few, like. But it's like a bully or something like that.

Nicole: It's not never, like, somebody who you love being bad to mean to you, like a parent or a loved one. Like, it's always like, oh, you know, you love your parents and you have to always do that. And that's what I always saw when I was a kid or whatever, no matter how shitty they were. And it's like, no, it's like, sometimes you can acknowledge that you can have conflicting feelings and, like, you can love somebody a lot, but they're still not good for you and not good for your life. And I was like, I love that we're teaching kids this, like, early so that they cannot have to go through as many years of therapy as the rest of us had to. To figure that out. So. Great.

Ruin Willow: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And just years in general, like, I feel like, you know, people getting more. Closer to midlife, they just start to know more, and they also start to not care, like, what other people think, which is a huge blessing, in my opinion. And I just. I totally embrace that and love it. And it gets. That gets bigger and bigger every year for me, where I don't care.

Nicole: Yep. I've loved my 30s so far. I just turned 37 this year. And I'm like, it't been amazing. There was something about when I turned 30 that I was just like, I don't. I'm done giving a fuck. I'm. I'm, whatever. And so, yeah, like, it's just been like, I'm 37 now and I'm looking up to 40. And I'm like, I'm really excited for my 40s because all of my friends in their 40s are like, yeah, I give even less fucks than I gave then. And I was like, yes. You mean there's a low. Like, there's a lower bar of I give. I am here for it. So.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, like, totally. That was for me, like, when I hit my early 40s too. That's what it was for me too. I was like. And it just, like I said, it just keeps getting better. And so then I think, well, geez, if I feel like this now, what am I gonna feel like in 10 years?


There was a time when I would get hateful comments on social media

Like, that's empowering and wonderful to look forward to. Right?

Nicole: Is really is. And I love being able to, like, find those little things in books and whatever that I can pass on to people who are younger than me so that they don't have to wait for their duties to, like, give less fuckx, you know? And there's so many amazing books that are coming out and out there. teaching kids how to, like, embrace your weirdness, be who you are't. Don't be bothered by what other people's expectations are about what you should look like or what you should act like or, you know, all of these things. Just embrace who you are and be a good person and like, live your life. And I'm like, I love this. I love this. I love that we have books for kids for this, for teenagers and elementary age and like, freaking picture books and baby books. Like, I'm like, this is amazing. And I just want to get everybody to read these books.

Ruin Willow: Yeah. And, you know, kind of like getting people away from thinking they need to be a people pleaser, you know, like, no, be who you are, you know, because that's not. That's not the message I got when I was a child.

Nicole: Yeah. so many years'covering people pleaser. Like, there's still parts of it that I have that come out to me and I'm like, we don't have to care anymore about what other people do. They're not paying your bills. Their opinion does not matter.

Ruin Willow: Now do you get. I mean, and talking about people who are mean and don't like you do you actually get like hate mail and emails and stuff like that. You do? What is wrong with people? I don't understand that. Seriously?

Nicole: Definitely, like slowed down. but yeah, there was a time period where like literally everything that I did would get hateful comments on social media and threats. And like at one point somebody sent out letters to every other business in town saying that I was on the government terrorist watch list.

Ruin Willow: Oh my gosh.

Nicole: with like my business address and my name and like all of that stuff on it. And just sent it to every business in town.

Ruin Willow: Isn't that like il Leggal, like libel or they call it libel or.

Nicole: Yep. And like they of course did it anonymously or whatever. And I was like, are you kidding me? So I just have this like folder of like where I keep all the screenshots and keep all the things because I'm like, I know that the cops are never going to do anything, but like my insurance ever happens, they're going toa want it. So I'm just like, farm.

Ruin Willow: That's a really good idea.

Nicole: Yeah. So it all just goes into there.

Ruin Willow: That would be my response if someone gave me a nasty gram some way. I'd be like, oh, okay, thanks. I'll add this to my file of things of insult in there. I would make it no in case my insurance company needs it Someday you'll be investigated.

Nicole: There's a lot in Michigan that if somebody, it's for like online, harassment basically. And it's like technically, do they ever do anything about it? No, of course not. But that's what I have my file folder titled. Is the specific law what that is? it's all the screenshots of all of the threats and the comments and stuff that I get from people online. I'm like, and here you go. So yeah, it's been nice that that has slowed down and they've just gotten used to me as being like that weird bookstore lady, whatever. Like may just ignore her. She'll go away now. It's been five years, hasn't worked yet, so sorry.

Ruin Willow: And if you're anything like me. And when people tell me I can't do something, I come forged through the fire harder, stronger. And I keep trying harder and I'm.

Nicole: Like fuck you every time. Every time. when we were our previous location, we had, we moved just this last year. but our old location was downtown, like right smack D downtown. And our downtown is like Hallmark movie esque looking very beautiful, very, you know, Christmas movie kind of look and so like, you know, I had a sidewalk sign out there and I had on there and said Black Lives Matter and I had it on there. And every time I would think like, okay, maybe I can put something else on there. Literally that same like I would have that thought and then somebody would like deface the sign or kick it over or send me some kind of message. And I was like, well, I guess it's just staying up there then because somebody still needs to see it. And so yeah, I'm the same way. I'm like, the fastest way to motivate me to do something is to tell me not to do it or I can't do it. And I'm like, m h. Okay, here we go.

Ruin Willow: And how beautiful is that? Because they're trying to stop you and actually what they're doing is fueling your fire.

Nicole: Oh yeah, we, we're big sticker people at the store too. And I think I have like three different versions of a sticker that says fueled by spite. Because I just like very soul level. But yeah, I know, I love, I love those moments. Like the universe just provides them of like when I'm tired or I'm like, why am I putting myself through all of this? I will either get a message from somebody who's being a dick and I'll be like, that's why. Or I'll get a message from somebody who's like, you know, this makes a difference and this matters. And I go, okay, I can keep doing it. It's fine. I cry a lot. And somet. Yeah, I love both of them. Both of them are very motivating for me.


Now do you have all different genres in your bookstore or you kind of focused

Ruin Willow: Now do you have all different genres in your bookstore or you kind of focused? Cause I know some are like, you know, I'm a romance bookstore or whatever.

Nicole: We are in all ages, all genre shop. we have a particular focus on social justice, nonfiction. And then we're big genre fiction people. So we're really big romance, sci fi, fantasy, mystery. We have a lit fix section. But it's like, you know how when you go into like regular bookstores and the romance section is like this big and everything else. Yeah, we re reverse. Like our romance section is our largest section. And I love big section is like this big. we have it just because like I suppose we should probably have that.

Ruin Willow: Yeah.

Nicole: It off into the corner where we don't about it. None of us are readers of that. That style. But yeah, no, it's really nice. I love being able to like have the Whole gamut U and whats really cool is that customers at this point like they dont t come to me for like the top bestseller New York Times big well known author books. Like they come to me specifically because they know that they're going to find something different at our store than they would at, you know, any other bookstore. And I really really love that. partially because it's just more fun for me. Like I Im m not that person who enjoys those Anyways, this'just like great for me but also just because like it gives me an excuse to go out and find even more of them and to do kind of more deep diving into finding diverse authors and finding indie authors and finding all of these, you know, things that don't get the normal budget for advertising from the publishers that you know these other people get. So it's pretty cool.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, I think the whole indie publishing thing is just, it's exploding more and more and what I love about it is we are getting these voices that the big publishers are scared to touch, won't touch our afraid won't make enough money because a lot of these people are, they know they're not going to make, they may not make a lot of money but they want to get their story out there so their focus isn't I want to make you know, x amount of money, I want to get my story out there. And so you get a whole different flavor and story from those people.

Nicole: Authors open up so many doors for people who wouldn't normally get a chance to be even seen heard by the big publishers. And I, and I love that about you know, the indie publishing and like does it make my life as a book buyer who has to buy, you know, books for 1900 square feet a little bit hardereah? It does. It'sgle. There's a lot out there and being able to like will f for our vibe and our style and that are you know, well written and edited and like all those things. it's a lot and I wish that there was an easier way for indie bookstores and indie authors to work together because I do feel like that is a really natural combination. But there are so many barriers that have been put in place so hard that both like I always feel like both sides looks at the other and just goes you just don't get me. Like it feels very much like the teenager and the parent kind of thing. Like we both think we're the teenager and like you don't understand. And I'm like there has to be something, there has to be some way that we can make it easier. I don't know what it is yet, but when I do, I. I'm going to just change the whole world.

Ruin Willow: Oh, definitely. It is hard though, because yeah, if these books exist out there and yet you want them. Yes, obviously you have a finite space. The people don't know how to get in contact. Right. And then also I think a lot of indie authors don't know. Like I recently even just found this out recently, that if you buy it from bookstores, can't buy from the Zon because they're way too expensive. Now people like me who have been publishing indie publishers for a while, I didn't know that. Right. Because when I go into my author copy, so I'm like, okay, yeah, $3.33. Cool, okay. But that's just for me. That's not for the bookstores. So I didn't even know that I was supposed to be putting some books on Ingrahamspark. And even there, there's still can be more expensive. The cheapest thing is the author copies and then the consignment issue or selling them to the bookstore. But then that's also hard too, and it can be a risk.

Nicole: Scary there so many levels. Yeah. Great options. And then, you know, I always try and take the time, you know, to educate people because like, we'll very often get authors who will come and lead with Amazon, which is a very fast way to get, ah, indie bookstores to like shut down and just not listen to anything else that you have to say. And I try to find indie bookstores like, like this is a business. Like they're a business as well as we are. And like Amazon unfortunately is like the only way for a lot of them to be able to do what they do. And like, there's not a good option. We. Ingrahamspark sucks. Like it sucks. I can't. Like, I know that it does. I have authors who are indie authors who I've watched them deal with that. It's not great. It's just not.

Ruin Willow: It's not great.

Nicole: The only thing that like, for most bookstores that they're going toa be able to access authors that are in the publishers. Like, this is why I. Like, there has to be something out there that's better and easier. And I don't, I don't know what it is, but we're going to figure it out someday, hopefully.

Ruin Willow: Exactly. And like, you know, a lot of even indie authors don't know. Like, I didn't know I should put my books on income. Spark. For a long time I didn't know that. So like there's no education, there's no information. So you know, it's even, you know, stuff like we're talking about right now.


For people making covers for indie books, what kind of covers should they do

So I want to ask you a little bit about for people who are making covers for indie books, what kind of covers should they do? Because there's, you know, spicy covers, there's non spicy, there's you know, cartoon.

Nicole: So what I always recommend to people, when they're looking at covers, is especially if they're the author and they're looking at it like the author really needs to step back from the process. I know that this is your baby and you wrote this book and you have these very big opinions about like what a cover should look like. But most often what happens is the author is s going to focus on some detail that to them they know is super, super important to the story or to the whatever. But just looking at the COVID the person purchasing it is not going to know that. so I saw people like go walk through a bookstore, go walk through your genre, go find, you know, similar titles and see what they're doing. Like, the trends are very specific. Like, it's very easy to see, like what are the trends? You know, right now in contemporary romance, it's the, it's the cartoon covers. Like, that is what's really big and popular and that's huge. U. you know, and you like I've gotten to the point now because we do use books as well. I can pinpoint like just looking particularly at romance, I can look at a cover and within a year to have exactly what date that book was published. Because like they go through very looks. And if you're in a genre, your customer is going to be expecting your book to look a certain way and they're going to expect it to look like all the other books in, in the genre. So you want to make sure that you have like those key components that are going to fit. And like, it's finding that balance of like not looking like everybody else while also looking like everybody else, which is really difficult. but yeah, so I always recommend people, I'm like literally just go walk in a bookstore, go look at your genre on the shelves, see what pops out to you as a person. Like, we shop with our eyes first. And I always tell people that like you want to have, you can have the best book ever written in the history of books. And if you don't have A good cover, it's not going to get picked up like ever. Likeers customers are really lazy. Like we have books that are like, you know, just stacked like a book. They wont look at them. They have to be face and theyll look at everything thats faced and they'buy m the heck out of those. But if its just like straight on the shelf, theyre not going to look at it. And like, you know, I see these things as a person whos s selling books and I just like watch like fascinated because Im just like h like learning these things about customer behavior. So yeah, I always recommend that to people. Like be very conscious of whats s happening in your genre and whats s happening in your know, especially if you like subge genres, especially romance has a lot of very. There's something for everybody and it niches down. but even in the broader terms of covers, you'll see those out there. And then I always, always rem people like make sure the side of the book does also look nice too. because there is only so much space on a bookshelf in a store and if they can only get one or two copies, it might end up being faced that way. So you want to make sure it's still something that's going to look good and have the information on there that's going to intrigue somebody to pull it off and have the title on the spine, have the author's name on the spine. So yeah, those are the two biggest things. Like just go do the research and just make sure it looks nice and it looks professional. And some people can be the best artists in the whole world, but they're not necessarily a great cover artist. Like it's a very specific style of art and the people who do it are amazing at it. And not everything translates as it should or as we think that it should. So yeah, it's definitely an area where I recommend to authors it's worth the money to, if you have it, to be able to do it. And if you don't start with what you can do, that's the best. And as you grow and as you are able to, you can always upgrade your cover later. definitely make sure that it is a thing that you're on top of and wanting to do. Especially if you want to books on the shelves being sold.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. And I would imagine that also will apply to ebooks seen on his screen. You know what I mean? It's not just going to be books, you know, because you to See the flat image, the front cover, that's going to apply too. But you know, and it just, it's so funny to me too because we're like, we're all taught don't judge a book by a cover. Oh yeah, it is not true.

Nicole: I tell people all the time I was like that's the worst advice ever. Like absolutely judge a book by its cover. It's go going to be exactly what you think it's going to take almost 90% of the time. Like it's going to be. But yeah, there's very specific trends and they go through cycles and like it's. If you're not in it, your your customers are going to get very confused and you're going to get people from the wrong who read the wrong genre reading yours and they're going to be upset because they're not getting what they think they're expecting. And like no book is going to appeal to everybody. And so you want to make sure that your customers are finding you are the people who are going to, you know, read your book and be a part of that and understand it and want that. and I've been hit with that before too. Like when the COVID trend was starting to go into m the cartoon covers and was starting to leadeed into other genres. Like it very started heavily in romance and it has slowly bled into like general fiction and historical fiction. I got hit a couple of times with a lit fick book that I thought was going to be a romance and I was big mad about it and I was like I enjoy this book because I went in thinking one thing and it was another and I'm just mad about it now. And even if I would have liked this book had I had a better preparation for what I thought I was going to be getting, I didnt t get that. And now Im mad and I see that happen a lot. It's been rough like trying especially as that trend has kind of bled out into other things of trying to like make sure my customers know Im like yeah, that I mean this is a good book but it's not a romance. If you think it its a romance, please don't think that it's a romance because it's not your're going to get mad and they're like o okay, thank you. I was like just don't want you to run into the same problem I did.

Ruin Willow: I mean it's interesting too because I'll talk to authors all the time and for instance they might put in their description this is a novella, blah blah, blah. Well then the people will read the book and be like, well, it was really short and the author's like, but I put no Vila in the.

Nicole: Yes. People are so strange. I always laugh because you know, you're readers and I'm like, the number of readers who don't read. I'm like, how.

Ruin Willow: The blurb is there for a reason. Right?

Nicole: But please read those things.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, it's almost like, I mean, I almost want to dare say they almost look at the COVID more than they read the blurb word for word because then they miss shit you 100%.

Nicole: Which is why it's so important to make sure your cover is like within your genre and meeting those expectations. Because 99% of people are going to go based off of that and theyre going to have this idea in their head of what that book is going to be about just off of that cover. And if it doesn't match, they're gonna be big mad.

Ruin Willow: Exactly.


I am loving seeing romance only bookstores happening more in places

Now, and in your store, do you also have spicy romance or do you not go that deep?

Nicole: Oh yes. I'm a romance reader who reads everything from straight up porn to like the cleanest romance where they barely kiss at the end. And I love all of them m on their own thing. but yeah, we do a lot of spicy romance. and it's really fun because we get people who come into our store specifically to get recommendations from us because there's so bookstores, like it's. I am loving seeing this trend of romance only bookstores happening more in places because I'm like, I love that and I would love to do just a romance only bookstore because I love romance so much. But that's still really, really new and a lot of people don't have that anywhere near them. So they're dealing with, you know, a standard bookstore or Barnes and Noble or something like that where it's not like romance is still kind of seen as that like whatever. They get so excited when they come in and they see our section and they see all of our like notes on all the books and like we get really jazzed and we'll be like, here's a giant stack of monster smut. Here you go. And like I love it about it. And I do too. Cause I'm like, these are my people.

Ruin Willow: that's so cool. Like that makes me think of like I go into the liquor store and I see the little, the little blurb about the wine. And Josh loves this wine. It tastes like berries And I'm like, yes, that's the one I want. You know what I mean? Like, that's so great that you guys do that.

Nicole: Friends now. Yes. M. We do those too. And I love them. we call them shelf docker in the industry, and they're so huge. u I love. I always call, our customers, like, we're like the island of misfit toys. We're all our little weirdos. We're all our little bookish, you knowated, like, don't want to be around too many people, but want to be around people. And we're like, I love having shelf talkers because people can get all of our recommendations without having to, like, interact with us if they're not.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole: I love having that. Making sure, like, I just tell my employees I'm like, put a lot of personality into it. Like, be very ridiculous, be silly, be whatever. Like, if they wanted to just read a blurb, they'd read the blurb. But, like, give them a reason that why you as a person connected with this book and make it fun. And those work so much better.

Ruin Willow: I. I bet, you know, people like personal recommendations, so they might even read that over the blurb even of the book.

Nicole: Right'mp out at people. And especially I've had customers who have been like, if they see a blurb, they don't even have to read it if they see a certain employee has done it. So they're like, oh, they've never done me wrong before.

Ruin Willow: Like, I'm just taking this because's that reputation.

Nicole: It's huge.

Ruin Willow: I would think if I did, if I were you, I'd be like, so stressed out because every book I came in, I'd be like, oh, my gosh, I need to read this one. This one. I'm like, I would be overwhelmed thinking how much I need to read.

Nicole: Like, there's not I so much less now than I did before the bookstore. It's so terrible. I do a lot of audiobooks. Thank God for audiobooks. I think this yeareah 98% of my reading was audiobooks. I think I maybe read like three or four physical or ebooks. Like, I just don't have the time. And if I can do an audiobook while I'm doing something else, like, it's literally the only way I'm gonna read sometimes. It's terrible. I'm like, it's literally my job to read and I just. I just can't. I don't have time. Or I get so, like, anxious and overwhelmed and stressed out. I'm like, so then I go back and reread my favorite, you know, thing for the 900th time, and I'm like, this is not helpful. But also, we are.

Ruin Willow: Helps you, right?

Nicole: Yes.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, that would be the thing for me. It would d be so overwhelming. And you want to read them, it's just that you necessarily can't. But I guess I'm kind of like that too. Have my Kindle is, like, full of, like, so many books, it's ridiculous. Like, am I ever gonna be able to read all this? But I like them all, I want them all, and I do want to read them all.

Nicole: And I'm a mood reader too, which adds on to that stress of, like, if there's a book I have to read and I'm not in the mood for it, I'm like, oh, it's painful for me. and so, yeah, it could just be like, who knows what I'm going to want? And because I do so many audiobooks, there's a libro fm, it's like the indie equivalent'love them so much. they have a program for booksellers to be able to get copies of audiobooks ahead of time so we can listen to them, and be able to recommend them and make lists or whatever. I literally just every month when they put up the new list, I go through and I take anything that's even like, remotely interesting to me that I may someday possib want to read.

Ruin Willow: Ye.

Nicole: And at this point, I think I'm closing in on like 2000 audiobooks in my. And I was like, I could start listening now and not stop and just listen to audiobooks and I would die before I finish audiobooks that I have on my, in my library.

Ruin Willow: Oh, I can totally understand that because. Yeah, but they, yeah, they're so great. And it just makes me so angry that all these people talking about how audiobooks are not reading, and I'm thinking all the young children that parents and teachers are reading to, you're telling me that that's B's and not worth it, like, shut down.

Nicole: How we've observbe stories for the majority of human history has been through oral.

Ruin Willow: Story storytetelling around the bonfire.

Nicole: I was like, books have only become accessible to people within the last hundred years, 150 years. Did nobody read before? No, they all got their stories just they're telling through storytelling. And it's such a vial way and yeah, it's the fastest way to, like, get the stink eye in our stories to say that because we're all big audiobook people and we're all like m m m mmmm. You can leave now. I get that for audiobooks and I get that for graphic novels.

Ruin Willow: when I oh sure.

Nicole: No, I need my kid to read a real book. And I'm like listen. And I will go off on the science of graphic novels and how they're leile than the same age range, traditional text and all. Like how it's better for people who have ADHD or dyslex.

Ruin Willow: Like yeeah.


People who bash graphic novels on social media are just ignorant trolls

Nicole: I will pull out like a whole PowerPoint scientific presentation. I'm just that like.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, the ignorance and I think the people that put that stuff out on social media are just the trolls. You know, there's so many trolls out there that just want cause a ruckus.

Nicole: And you would think that. But I think at least with the audiobooks for sure they'just people who are just dumb. But with the graphic novel, I get a lot of people who like our generation. Like graphic novels weren't a thing when I was growing up. Like there was comic books, but that was very niche and it was very, you know, whatever.

Ruin Willow: Yeah.

Nicole: ###Ic novels were not a thing. I not until I opened the bookstore that I actually read my first graphic novel and I was like holy shit, this is amazing. So you have a whole generation of us who grew up not having them and not understanding that like a graphic novel, it's. It's a thing that's a whole, you know. And I'm not dogging comic books at all. Like they're amazing on theire, but they're very different. Like they're very different. And so like they have this kind of idea that it's just this like oh, you know, comic books are just silly, you know, Archie, whatever, whatever it is. They're like, oh, those aren't real books because they just have no experience with it. They don't understand like the amount of work that goes into graphic novels and how great they are for kids to be able to learn new words and to do all these things. So I'm just like, there's just like this education piece there that for graphic. Yeah, audiobook part. Yeah. No, they're just assholes. But the graphic novels, right? I'm like you. There's. There's a whole lot of us who just don't know better yet. But I will, I will teach you.

Ruin Willow: Yeah. This is the judgment. That's what bugs me. It's like you don't Know what talking about and, and really, that just really is very insulting to all these teachers and parents who'literally spent hours reading to their children. Like, what are you, what are you trying to bash this?

Nicole: Yeah, like you. I'm like, every time. Especially when it's parent. Like you never sat down with your kids and read them a book? No. Yeah. No. Okay. That tells me a whole lot about you.

Ruin Willow: Right. I just don't get it. Yeah, they're just stupid. They're justup s. That's all there is to it. They're just when I also make audiobooks, so I'm going to extra call them stupid audiobooks.

Nicole: So I. Oh man, I'm so passionate about audiobooks. And like I have my favorite narrators and like, I can like pick out like from two seconds of listening. Like, oh, I know who this is. And I know other books that listen to that many of them. And the whole process, like it's an art. Like having an actual GRD book by an actual narrator is such a different experience. And you start seeing all of the AI crap coming out now and I'm like, I get real. If they don't disclose to me that'an AI narrator, like I will be liveivid about it. Because I'm just like, no, I don't want to support that. I want to supportical narrators because it's an art. Like you put a lot into it. And it's not just reading a book. Like anybody can read a book. No, I mean, yes, but doing narration is a whole different beast. And the talent is just so much for that.

Ruin Willow: And you know what's really crazy to me? Like I didn't even know this was a thing. Somebody, one of my fans said, oh yeah, I got your book and I got the ebook and I listened to it on Alexa and I'm like, I said that one doesn't have an audiobook yet. And he goes, yeah, I just listened to On Alex and I'm like, holy fuck.

Ruin Willow: So this has been happening a lot longer than people realize because of the Alexa.

Nicole: Oh yeah. And I remember back when I was in college, before I really knew like anything about anything, I had a Kindle and it would read to me. The Kindle would. It was back before Amazon owned Audible, so like their Kindle would read the booke and this'just very robotic, just terrible thing. But that was like all I had access to and knew and didn't realize that there was actually other things out there. And I'm like, yeah, so I'M like, oh, come over to the good side where the narrators live. And it's so much better, I promise.

Ruin Willow: I mean to me it's like the difference of like making a movie out of that would be like a cartoon of actual actors. But it's not the actual actor. Then it's a cartoon. But to me that would be like, no, I want the real people. Unless I'm you know, watching a cartoon and I know it's presented as a cartoon. Yeah. So it's just, it's weird.

Nicole: It's very. Yeah, it's so weird.


With audiobooks, people have an immediate reaction to voices

I'm like, I don't, I can't. I don't. Yeah. Nope. I'm all, I'm all for my narrators and I love them a whole lot. And I will go down fighting with them because Im just like it. I literally have narrators that I will read books just because they narrated it. I Im like, I don'I ah, just want to listen to their voice because I find it, you know, so soothing or whatever. And Im'just like m okay, cool. They narrated it awesome. It cant t be that well.

Ruin Willow: And the crazy thing I find with fans or people who like to use my content is that people who read the books are very different than the people who listen. And also with audiobooks, people have an immediate reaction to voices. They either love the voice or they don't. And so it can actually ruin the book for them or can make them love the book more. And a narrator can make a book even more amazing. So there's so many different, more aspects and possibly turn ons and turn offs. Yeah, it's an audio book.

Nicole: I'll know within about three minutes if I can listen to a narrator or I'm just like. And I won't let myself go any further than that because yeah, it can ruin the book for me if I let it go too long because I'm just irritated by the voice or their silen. I'm like, nope, I have to stop right then. And then be like, if I'm gonna read this, I have to read it as a physical book. Like it's just I can't M.

Ruin Willow: Yep. Yep. So you run into that people have more of a reaction than they do even to your reading. Because when you read a book, the voice is in your head. Yeah, you're making up the voice, you.

Nicole: Know, especially like you've read the book yourself and then you listen to book. It can be, it's very draw for some people like me with then I Read a book and then I like, I watch the movie version of it. I'mnna hate the movie. It's just how it'going to be that way. But books always better first then read the book. I can like them both on their own merits. So that's what I always tell people. Im'm like, if this is your favorite book in the whole world, maybe not start with that as your first audiobook ever. Let's try something new instead.

Ruin Willow: Exactly.


So what advice do you have for diverse authors who are indie publishers

So what advice do you have for diverse authors who are indie publishers? Is there something you could say to them? I know we've talked about a little bit. Was there something maybe extra special you could say to them that would make maybe. And I know you're just one person oneing the bookstore, but if you have any opinions, know people would like to know.

Nicole: I would say like lean into your audience. You know's like I said, there's no book that's ever going toa be everybody's favorite book. Everybody's going toa love, everyone's going to be appealed to. So don't be afraid to lean into who you are and who your audience is going to be. And like, yeah, hopefully other people will find it too. And that would be great. But like being honest to yourself and being honest to your audience is going to be so much more fulfilling, I would think, as an author and also make it that much easier for people who're going toa champion it to others to find it. And that's the best, in my opinion, the best way to get your book out there. For me, like, I do so much, I spend so much time on social media looking at book readers who are in like various communities to see what are they loving and what are they reading. And so I end up finding a lot of these authors who don't get the, you know, the marketing budget or whatever. So you know, if you're going to be out there and your're a queer author particular, you know, make sure that you're, you're writing for your audience, you're writing for that. Ah. And not trying to like sanitize yourself down or be palatable to everybody. Like you're just, you're never going to succeed at that and you lose out on those people who may just fall in love with what you write and just scream about it from the mountaintops and tell everybody they know.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, and that also brings up a good point, and I have heard other authors say this, is that they try to find communities that are like in their genre and they Go and hang out there and they talk to people. And not only is that getting you out there as an author in your specific community, but you're seeing what people like you said. People are saying. People like, I like this book because.

Nicole: Read not the next shy about sharing what, you know, the books that they love'excited about. And you know, the fastest way that you can find out like what people are into or what people want to read is to go be in spaces with readers. And I think that that's why the big publishers are so threatened by things like, you know, book talk and Bookstagram and all of that is they don't want to listen to like what readers actually want to read. They justlish what they want. And so they see this, like, this threat. Whereas all of us who are like, yeah, no, I'm going toa listen to the people who actually read and love books and are into it. I'm going to listen to them. I'm not listening to you. I got this. and that's the best place to be.


What do you think about the trend of indie publisher rising and getting more publicity

Ruin Willow: What do you think about the trend of indie publisher rising and getting more not such a bad rep.

Nicole: I love it. I love it so much. you know, especially because I, I particularly love diverse books. Like a lot of authors who don't get the chance to be traditionally published because of stupid things. You know, like their queer author or they re a black author, they're indigenous, you know, whatever. Like the publishers don't want to take a chance because they don't see them as marketable. Get to become huge through indie publishing because they're directly appealing to the readers. And once they find their audience, they find their readers who are passionate about them. They know they blow up. And I love that. And it makes me so excited for them. And I love that indie authors are able to make careers of it. You know, you can be a professional author with a traditional publisher and you have to have a real day job because you're not going to make enough money with that. You can also not make enough money as an indie author, a publisher. It's very hard out there for everybody. But like, I love that it gives more people an opportunity to be a part of the industry that wouldn't normally get that chance.

Ruin Willow: Oh, absolutely. And like we were talking about before, you know, not only are we in a different age where there's more books, we're in a time when people who authors can create books and disseminate widespread their stories. This has never happened before, ever.

Nicole: M and it's such a cool space to be able to be in as it's happening, you know, like getting to see. And I love that people are getting to find the things that appeal to them in a way that they never did before. Because indie publishers are, you know, indie authors are able to write more broadly and able to write more spicy or more niche or more whatever that a big publisher won't take because they want to appeal to the largest audience that they can. It's so cool because we're finding so many more people who love reading, who never thought that they loved reading before. And that's just. They had never had anything that actually appealed to them. Like they had only ever just seen the blah blah, blah that everybody's reading and they're like, okay, cool, whatever. and now they're getting def find like that very, very niche, very specific thing that appeals to them and they're like, well now I got to read everything that's like that. And there's. I love that.

Ruin Willow: I recently heard someone say the big publishers, tradal, traditional publishers, they have a relationship with the bookstores. Indie publishers have a relationship with the readers.

Nicole: Ye.

Ruin Willow: You agree with that in a way?

Nicole: I do. the big publishers have a relationship with the big bookstores.

Ruin Willow: Yes.

Nicole: Noble and the Amazon. and I do definitely agree that the indie authors have relationships with the readers for sure. Hands down. and that's where I feel like there's that middle ground of us indie booksellers and indie authors where it could be just so great, like if we could just connect. because yeah, the publishers don't care about us.

Ruin Willow: They't in fact, they'd like you to be gone. Right.

Nicole: They'd like to eat you up. There's such a market share owned by Amazon. The Amazon gets to dictate every decision that the publishers make and we get screwed. That's just how it is. Which is why there's so many bad feelings in the indie bookstore world about Ames. but yeah, it's just, it's always so fascinating because indie booksellers like we get passionate about books and we share them and we champion them and we do all of this advertising for the publishers of sharing these books that we're passionate about, excited about, and we do all of it for them for free and then we screwed by them and they're crappy turns and all stuff and I'm like, cool, whatever, awesome. But yeah, no, I love, I love though that indie authors are. Their focus is their readers. Like they're, they're writing to their audience. They're writing to the people who are going to love their books and that's all they should care about and all they do care about. And it works out really, really well for the readers at least. And the authors hopefully.

Ruin Willow: Absolutely right. Exactly.

Nicole: Yeah.

Ruin Willow: And they're just like you said, there's so many romance bookstores opening up and a lot of them are female owned.

Nicole: Yes.

Ruin Willow: Which is just fantastic. And I feel like all the time on social media I'm like, oh, here's another one in this, this city, this you know, this state. And that is fantastic. We need to.

Nicole: In west Michigan that I was like this is amazing. And I haven't had chance to make it out to it yet. Like they just opened just like right at the end of Oct. Of November, the beginning of December. and it's just, it's such a great thing to see. Like I've always known like romance and genre fiction pays for everything else in publishing. Like it does sales in romance in particular pays for everything else. But it gets none of the respect and it getse.

Ruin Willow: No, in fact people insult it is.

Nicole: Yeah. People actively shit on it. And I'm like your crappy lit fit book that five people have read but a million, you know, people have given awards to only got published. A billion people read this romance book. That's it. That's the only reason why that happened then you don't even. And I think that yeah, it's always had such a bad rap but like in the especially romance is the genre for adult fiction where you see the most diversity and you see those things happening'don't. Get me wr. There's still a long way to go. But it is where you start to see the inroads being made into that. And it's such a cool thing to get to be at the front of, especially when you're somebody who actively looks for those sorts of things, you know. And I have just like these amazing authors that I've gotten to know. and one, her name is Denise Williams and she's my like go to for people who want to try romance but they're a little skeptical of it. And I was like, okay, here she's like my intro for people into romance M. But she's also a professor and she literally teaches a class on social justice and romance books. And I was like can I please come to your school and take that? That sounds amazing. But yeah, she talks about how like you can see mental health representation and different body types and different experiences. All of that in Romance that you don't see in other genres.

Ruin Willow: Right. And attention to women's pleasure and sexual pleasure, because it's just not there.


Books about love are often trashed because they're written by women

So that's one thing I like to focus on, is female empowerment and female pleasure, which has not historically been in books. But what I don't really understand is we all say love is the most important thing in the world, and yet books about love are basically trashed. Like, this does not make sense. This is not logical.

Nicole: No, no. And I think that's because, you know, the books about love are books written by and for generally women and anything, must not be respected and good enough and whatever. And I just, yeah, I will never understand it because it's always been my appeal. It's always been my genre, it's always been m. My go to. And I'm like, y'all are crazy. Like, I love this. And you know, I see so many things and I've gotten to experience so much. I feel like there's a real power in fiction to get to experience, you know, other people's experience, lived experiences and cultures and lives and whatever. and I find that in romance is the easiest because the one kind of most universal experience that we all have is that desire to love and be loved. And whether that's semantic love or friend love or family love, like, that is the one thing that we all share in common. Like, there's very few other things that we share that universally. And so it's just like that easiest way to be able to like, read and be in the mindset of somebody who's different than you and be like, oh, okay, like we're different, but we're also not that different. Like, we have these things in common and I can understand them and I can, oh, here's this broader perspective of the world that I wouldn't have had. And you're getting all of this while you're just reading a really great story and you don't realize that is happening.

Ruin Willow: Right. And I've heard to like, A lot of, you know, change in culture starts first in art. And in books. And the more books we get out there like we're talking about, the better it is. Even though people are elsewhere trying to ban things and are banning things, you get to say, I'm not banning. I'm going to put what the fuck I want. Right.

Nicole: Yep. It, it's incredibly frustrating, because the books that are most frequently banned and challenged are books, LGBTQIA or BIPOC representation or authors. Like 88%, I think of books are either of those or both combined. You know? and it's so infuriating because these are the stories that most need to be told, because either you've never had a chance to see yourself in it, or you've never had a chance to experience another culture because you've only ever read stories by straight white people. Like, it's just. That's it.

Ruin Willow: Right.

Ruin Willow: Right.

Nicole: It's so incredibly infuriating for me, and I'm incredibly passionate about, you know, banned books, and I go to school board meetings and I talk about it, and I actually wrote a book about it. and so, like, it. It's something that I'm just like, if you have the chance to read a book that has made somebody mad enough that they want to banish, challenge it, please do. Because, like, it is the most important books that you can read because they're trying to decide who's acceptable in our communities and who's not. And most often, it's people like us, who are not the acceptable ones because, you know, we don't look like them.

Ruin Willow: Well, and the thing that really bothered me one time, I heard someone say, you know, they didn't think that children should be learning about anal sex and. And stor. And I said, because a book is about. If they're about a gay person, that doesn't mean they're talking about fucking sex to children. Where does this come from?

Nicole: people have a very warped. Like, there's a book, it's called, bathe the Cat, and it's about this family who are trying to give their cat a bath, which, if you've ever tried to give a cat a bath before, is horrific experience. And this cat is sassy and very not happy about it. It's a kids's picture book, and that's what the story is about. And it is widely bannedoned challenge because the parents happen to be two men. That's it. There's no part of the story that focuses on that at all.

Ruin Willow: Like, it's unbelievable.

Nicole: Like, it just. That's who the parents are. And because of that, it is inappropriate for children and all this stuff. And I'm just like, in what world is. I mean, what. What is happening? And so my. It's just so mind blowing because I'm like, what? and. And I don't know, I see so many, you know, kids and stuff like that who are hearing adults in their community talk this way about, you know, especially LGBTQ kids, like, hearing them be talked about in such horrific terms. That it's like, do you wonder why these kids don't want to come out to you? Or why they don't. Why as soon as they turned 18, like they were gone and never.

Ruin Willow: They're just gone, right?

Nicole: Like it's just like this is, this is why, like they're hearing you. And I'm a 37 year old, fairly well adjusted adult who has, you know, accepted my identity a long time ago. And even I like after a while, like hearing people over and over and over again things, I'm like, God, this is exhausting. So like for a child who never. You.

Ruin Willow: Yes, Un'sure child. Yeah, right.

Nicole: Get big ma. I get big mad about ituse. I'm just like, nope. so that's why I go, I go to school board meetings and I go to library meetings is I don't have kids, so I'm everybody's aunt instead. And I can go, I can go and speak up and I can go do that because it's just me, my boss doesn't care what I say and I don't have kids who are going to have to deal with repercussions for what I do. And so it's easier for me to go and to go speak up and to show this other side. But I encourage everybody like you should be going to your school board meetings at least every once in a while. Know what's happening. Be aware before things get really, really bad. because yeah, it's awful out there right now.

Ruin Willow: I mean, and all the stuff I've been hearing lately, you know, there are s. Certain states I do not want to ever live in now. And I never had that before the past maybe six months. You know, all the politics stuff and the book fannning. And I'm like, I don't want to live in those states. Like I have a growing list of states I don't want to live in now.

Nicole: And it's when, when you do enough of, you know, you understand what's happening and the perspective of what, you know, these politicians want, you start to recognize that it doesn't matter where you live. It will impact us if we allow these things to go unchecked. Because if Florida decides to make a law against XYZ types of books and it, you know, this is inappropriate, pornographic. Well, what happens if somebody buys a book from me in Michigan and I ship it to them in Florida? Am I in the law in Florida are like, what's goingna happen?


The Supreme Court has ruled that book banning is wrong

And so there become all of these implications that kind of hit wider that are really terrifying. Like if you like think about how it could very easily go. and so far the Supreme Court has sided with, you know, the First Amendment and said that, you know, book banning is wrong. And they've continued to do so. But not a lot of us have a whole lot of faith in the Supreme Court doing the right thing anymore just because it's the right thing. Like, I don't have a lot of faith in that. so yeah, I always, I'm very, very passionate about people getting involved at the local level because that's where it starts. And they're trying to get it. We just like nip it in the bud before that happens, right?

Ruin Willow: Oh gosh. I know. And it's. That is terrifying. Like I hadn't thought about this whole shipping business.

Nicole: You my nightmare.

Ruin Willow: Jeez. It's like, Toba doesn't get to that point. We're like, oh, you live in Florida, I can't ship to you.

Nicole: Yeah. And it becomes a point of like even purchasing online and purchasing ebooks and audiobooks. Like if they saying that, you know, books with LGBTQIA representation is inappropriate for children and they can't be had. Well, how is Amazon going to know if a book being bought that's an ebook or naugh, e book is going to a child or to an adult. So is Amazon just going to stop doing it all together?

Ruin Willow: right.

Nicole: And it's just like there's all of these implications of the wider danger to our First Amendment rights. That is just really terrifying.

Ruin Willow: It is, it is. And then now we have the whole, the whole shipping thing even overseas now there's a whole issue with that now where they have to have some sort of representative over there.

Nicole: Yep. It's just, it's terrifying. And authors are at the front lines of this so often and.

Nicole: Have such an important. Which goes back to the indie authors, especially the diverse indie authors. It's like it is so important to support them because authors that are writing books that are going to be frequently banned or challenged publishers, traditional publishers, are they going to want to continue to take that chance, to have to fight it in court, to have to deal with the bad. So it gets point like they're not even going to start publishing those books because why would they want to deal with all of that? Which makes the representation that's already very small in the traditional publishing world even smaller. And so when you have IND publisher or indie authors who are publishing their own works, it sometimes can be the only way that those can get out there. And it's just that much more important.

Ruin Willow: Because like a few years ago there was a big push. Everybody was looking for diverse books and it was just this big thing and I feel like it's kind of just fizzled.

Nicole: Yeah, right. Yeah. The summer of 2020, there was a big. I sold a lot of, social justice nonfiction, you know, books about black experience to white people. And now Im looking four years later, Im like, you did not read that book you bought for me, did you? No, you did not. Okay, cool. Here. Here'a fiction book. And so I just, I continue to try and like make those inroads through fiction because that does end up being the way that people are Easier to be able to open their minds and have that broader kind of perspective. But I'm just like, I mean, thank you for buying all of these books. But you really didn't. You didn't read them at all, did you?

Ruin Willow: Right. They didn't really, ye get cracked and thought about and they're still sitting.

Nicole: On the shelf somewhere.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, that's so frustrating. But I want to say this to people who are indie authors. Get your fucking books out there now. While you can get them out there. Print them. You know, so people have this thing of, you know, I'm gonna, submit to publishers and you know, that can take like two years, even if you get accepted, which is very hard to do anyways, but you can get your book out now. So then I'm like kind of want to like tell people, you know, especially in this volatile times, fucking publish your book. Just do it.

Nicole: The act of having just written a book at all is amazing and huge and hats off to everybody and anybody who does that. And it's a lot of work to be an indie author and an indie published author, you have to do it all. You wear all the hats, you do all the things. But it's also a lot of work to be a traditional puber published author and in just important ways. So like, you're going toa be doing a ton of work anyways. At least do it in the way where you can get your book out there a little bit more easily. And you can do both too, which I love. I love the authors who are hybrid and they do both. Like, it's just like Talia Hibbert is one of my favorite romance authors. And her Brown Sisters trilogy is traditionally published. And it was the first book u. Eve Brown. It's the second one. It was the first book where I ever saw a bisexual main character who was a woman who was in a relationship with a man and in no way was her like queerness negated by that. And it was just such a, like, right. Like 33, I think when I read that book and I was like, you should not have to wait 33 years to see your lived experience in a book. But here we are. She also does indie published stuff which is a little bit more spicy. And I'm just like here for it because like I love the chemistry and I love all of that in her traditionally published stuff. And so when I found out that she did indie stuff too, I was like, I need every single one of these because it'snna be good and it's fantastic.

Ruin Willow: Right. And I feel like too with the whole the open door stuff, like for me too, I have written sweeter romance and closed door, but it pisses me off now when I get to the end of a story and all they've done is kiss. I want to know the full story.

Nicole: I. I better know that going into it because if I'm at like 65% of the book and I haven't seen sex yet, I'm like, yes, what is happening right now? Unless you are very explicit with me from the get go that that's what I'm going to expect. I'm goingn be. I'mnn be very disappointed.


One thing Indie Public has championed is content warnings at the beginning of books

Ruin Willow: Exactly. And I almost feel like, you know, we almost need to add that in the blurb. Not that we're talking about everybody reading the blurb or not, but is it open door or is it closed door? And I much prefer that to clean versus dirty.

Nicole: Same. I hate wording what that is. It's so. Yeah. And likening it really. It really is. And it just really kind of talks about our like puritanical culture of how.

Ruin Willow: We like sex is bad and dirty. No it's not. Yeah.

Nicole: And like, I love another thing that like Indie Public IND the authors have really kind of championed is using like content warnings and trigger warnings at the beginning of readers can go in informed as to what they can expect in a book. And I fucking love that so much and it makes me so. And I hope that that is a thing that the traditional world picks up more of and does. because I'm seeing that those indie authors who get picked up by traditional publishers later are still continuing that with their traditionally published stuff.

Ruin Willow: Yes.

Nicole: So like, can we just add to those content warnings, like what percentage should I expect to be, at before I finally get to see sex?

Ruin Willow: Right Exactly.

Nicole: So that those of us who want to be informed can be. And those who like to be surprised can just skip past that. Could be great, right?

Ruin Willow: I mean to me, love. I feel like I can learn a lot about characters when they're so vulnerable that they are having sex. To me, that is. You learn more about them, you can further the story. And of people, a lot of people are like, oh no, that doesn't add anything. This story. Yes it does. This is a very personal, intimate part of our life. Again, it doesn't make sense.

Nicole: Yeah. It doesn't. And I love to like there's such a wonderful evolution in romance from like I remember when I was reading them, you know, as a teenager and reading them now of like very consent storylines too. And talking about these things and having these conversations about.

Ruin Willow: Yes.

Nicole: How to bring up topics about are you gonna use condoms or not? Are you gonna. You't have safe words. Are youn toa do this? And giving people that like perspective of like this should be normalized and everybody should be doing this is such a wonderful thing. And I get so like happy about it every time I see. I think it's like the sex part of books and I love it.

Ruin Willow: Yeah.

Nicole: But when I see like, you know those parents who get big mad at their kids for reading romance books and I'm like, look, we all did it. We all read them when we were kids too. Like we ah, parents or grandparents shelf or whatever. And I promise you the stuff that I read way worse than the stuff that they're reading.

Ruin Willow: Oh for sure, for sure.

Nicole: Showing our kids like this perspective of you know, healthy relationships and communication and all of this stuff and it's still anything better they're going toa find scrolling on their phones on the Internet. So like. Right. Don't be mad about them reading, you know, whatever TikTok book blew up most recently and they want to have from the bookstore like just let them read it and be willing to have a conversation with them. But again, I'm notare. What do I know? But I feel like that just makes the most sense to me.

Ruin Willow: Well, and it makes no sense to me either. Like our history of like Hunger Games violence is okay with teenagers, but.

Nicole: Sex is not okay to have kids killing each othering with that. But healthy relationships. Oh no.

Ruin Willow: Assassins. We were like glorifying these teenage assassins and shit.

Nicole: Yeah.

Ruin Willow: You know, like how about we just. And then you're talking about people who love each other or expression of love and they're just saying it's awful. Like what?

Nicole: Terrible example. Terrible example for children. But I'm like, but. But you're. Okay, okay. Make. It makes sense. It doesn't make sense to me and.

Ruin Willow: It does not make sense. But yeah.


I think that something that readers have championed is having trigger warnings on books

And I wanted to get back to what you were saying how like a lot of people have their book covers and then they have like the tropes and they have the little arrow down to it. I love that you too. And that is something relatively new. You know, it hasn't been around that long, but it really has blown up and I feel like it is with a lot of the, the indie. Indie authors and stuff.

Nicole: And, and I think that something that readers have championed and because indie authors are so in touch with their readers and know that they like that and want that they do that. And because traditionally published, you know, traditional publishers are not that well connected and into it, they're just like, that's stupid. Why would I do that's like. Because readers want that. They do. They really do. And if a reader doesn't want that, it doesn't hurt them to have it there. They just skip past it. But it makes a huge difference to those readers who want it and can read and you know, go into a book, you know, well informed and know what they're getting into. And I'm just like this. So it takes two seconds to put that on. Put that on a book. Why would you not do that?

Ruin Willow: Right. And I think too it's just like looking at an outline or bullet points of, you know, oh, this is for me. This isn't for me. It's, you know, that's kind of a trigger for me. I don't think I'm going to get this book.

Nicole: Yeah. And then you get to save yourself the time and go read something that is more appropriate for you. And then a person who is going to be okay with it and love that is going toa find it and read it and be passionate about it. And this person who if they had had the trigger warnings would have skipped it won't be writing a review going, this book was terrible. I hated it. Not for them. It's not their book. It's not that it's a bad book. It's just not their book.

Ruin Willow: It's curating to readers and not. That's the difference.

Nicole: Yep. It's here_ge and I love it.


I saw recently you are having weddings at your bookstore

Ruin Willow: So I also want to ask you, I saw recently you are having weddings. Yeah, this was a really cool idea.

Nicole: Oh, was so lovely. I wrote a like bucket list when I opened the store because I was like, I'm never gonna have a spaceship, you know, that I build with all my money I make at the bookstore. I'm never going to be a billion. And I don't want to be. Like, that's just. I wouldn't want to be. But I was like, but what are going to be my markers of success that are going to say, okay, at the end of my bookstore life? Like, how do I know that I did accomplish something? It'so like, I just. This list of, like, you know, I want one of my employees to leave and to go open their own bookstore. I want one of the kids that grows up in my bookstore to come back as an adult with their kids. I want to have a wedding at the bookstore. I want to have a first date at the bookstore. And so, like, I'm like, crossing these things off. And, recently, you know, with the election, everything like that, there's a lot of people are like, I want to get married now before things maybe go away or it's harder or whatever. And, you know, we have a group locally that was for LGBTQ folks, and somebody was like, I'm trying to find a budget friendly place that I can go and have an elopement. Like, I don't just want to do the courthouse. And somebody had tagged me and tagged the bookstore. And I was like, this is my chance. I'm finally going to make it happen. and so, yeah, we were able to offer that up, to folks. Like, we normally charge a fee for people to use the store and to do private events and whatever. And I was like, my wedding present is, I'm waiving that fee and you guys can come and, you know, do your wedding. And it's really selfish of me because I just really want a wedding. And so we had our first one on Sunday, and we've scheduled already, and then we have a couple more that are still, like, in the works of happening. And I'm just like, I love it. So I'm very excited caus I haven't gotten to see the, like, pictures yet. Like, the photographer was gonna send me, like, their photos. So all I saw are just the pictures that my employee had posted about it. And I was like, it's so beautiful and I love it.

Ruin Willow: It's a really cool, unique idea, especially for people who are just like, like, you know, readers, and they love to read. And, like, that's'the best.

Nicole: And I promise you, like, if you're a reader and you want to do a bookstore wedding, you Go to a bookstore and you ask them and like, whatever. I. 99% of the time I have no doubts that they'll be so stoked about the idea because we are all semantics at heart and we love our bookstores and we love our bookish people. And so this whole idea of having, you know, you get to like have your wedding in our bookstore. Cause it was that important. He was like, you know, it's a big deal.

Ruin Willow: That's very cool.


Betty's bookstore is celebrating its fifth anniversary this year

Now what do you see for going forward? Are you there things that your other, other things than you've just mentioned that you're looking forward to or want to include?

Nicole: It's a, it's an interesting time for me and for the bookstore. we have our fifth anniversary coming up and like five years is like a pretty big deal in small businesses. Like if you've succeeded that long, like you've made it over the hump of the worst, you know, hardest times. Of course, like, there are other like h economy and all these other things that are going wrong in the world and whatever, but I feel like, okay, we made it five years. I think I'm kind of like getting the hang of this. I know what I'm doing. We're doing pretty good. So like, what other ways can I like, get out into the world and bring what we do specifically differently out to it? And so my current like passion project kind of percolating in my brain is I want to do a book bus that I can then just drive around to small towns. Can't support a full time bookstore and just like show up with my little queer bookstore and be like, here are the books U. and it's just, it's been a really beautiful thing to see in the indie bookstore world. A lot more mobile and pop up bookstore.

Ruin Willow: I've seen some too.

Nicole: I love it because not every, not every community has the ability to support a full time bookstore. but like they still deserve to have a bookstore. And so I'm like, I just want to show up with my Betty's bookstore and just drive around to small towns and just have that. And so that's what I think are t. My next like vision is like, we'll still have the store and that'll still be a thing and it'll still continue grow. But like, I just want to be able to like, take it on the road.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, that would be very cool. And then we're like, I wonder if you could like go to like festivals and stuff with that, couldn't you?

Nicole: Like, I just want to like, show up everywhere. I had somebody who messaged me a while ago asking if I would come and do like a birthday party for them. Like, come and do like a fair birthday party for them.

Ruin Willow: Interesting.

Nicole: Yes, I will. Absolutely. I would be down. Like, I'm like, you want me to show up to your house for your birthday party? I will.

Ruin Willow: What else do you need?

Nicole: Right, yeah, like, I'm here for it.

Ruin Willow: Like, I mean, just go in, I'll bring the chips. What do you need? Right.

Nicole: Will I get a slice of cake? Cool. I'm in.

Ruin Willow: That's pretty cool. That's pretty awesome. Yeah, I like that. That's very cool. And so where, where else can people find you if they want to find more information about you? Obviously you do ship. Right.

Nicole: So, happily. our website is bettypages.com and it's Betty with an ie, not a y. and we ship everywhere and our entire inventory is on our website, so you can find everything that we have there. and then we're across all social medias as Betty's pages. and it's, Facebook and Instagram and TikTok are our most active ones. But yeah, we're on all of them and we're everywhere.


Bookshop. org lets you support independent bookstores without using Amazon

Ruin Willow: Is there anything we didn't talk about yet that you really want to talk about or mention?

Nicole: I don't think so. I think we did a wonderful job of just enjoying a conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed that.

Ruin Willow: I did too. It was really fun. I had a great time and I think it's great information for people and to get people to like, you know, support the indie independent bookst stores, you know, and I know Amazon is easy, it's easy to order from them, but.

Nicole: It is. But there are lovely alternatives out there. There's bookstop.org comm which is just as easy to order from.

Ruin Willow: Ah, Amazon.

Nicole: And you can pick whatever indie bookstore you want to support with your purchase through that.

Ruin Willow: That's cool.

Nicole: What I really love with them, and also with Libro is like, they have, curated lists like, I want to support Google own bookstore or I want to support a black owned bookstore. I want to support an LGBTQ bookstore. You can like find those and pick one from anywhere in the country to support with your purchase. And it's just really nice to start having kind of more options other than Amazon out there for people to have the ease and the convenience that they like without supporting Jeff Bezos.

Ruin Willow: Yeah, that is a brilliant invention, creation, whatever you want to call it.

Nicole: Big fan.

Ruin Willow: It's huge. So, yeah, people need to check that out. Bookshop.org right. That's what it.

Nicole: ISOP do or. Yep.

Ruin Willow: Yeah. And I didn't realize they had actual lists like that. You could pick.

Nicole: It's lovely. I love them.

Ruin Willow: That is very cool. Very, very awesome. Well, this was so interesting. I really had fun. And. And I love being able to highlight such a thing that you're doing, which is so amazing. It's so needed and, you know, more power to people doing what you're doing, and all the authors and let's all work together and just get books out there, you know, it's just so. It's awesome.

Nicole: It really is.

Ruin Willow: Well, thank you so much. You have an amazing day.

Nicole: You, too. Thank you.

Ruin Willow: Okay, bye.