The Healing Power of Smut, Part 6: from Repression to Midlife Expression in Erotic Literature with Ramone Quides

Ep: 598 From Repression to Expression: A Writer's Journey into Erotic Literature.

Guest Bio:

Ramone Quides is a renaissance polymath who discovered the joys and fulfillment of creative writing later in life. He enjoys writing diverse, connective stories that elevate and celebrate all the places the unencumbered minds can wander. The array of fictional literary erotica he’s dreamt up for your enjoyment are intended to tickle your overt and covert interests and fantasies.

His celebrations of varied genders, interests and preferences have been published in:

The Big Book of Quickies by Rachel Kramer Bussel (affiliate links for books) https://amzn.to/3Y6zDMQ

Erotica For Men: And the Women Who Love Them, Volume II by Rose Caraway https://amzn.to/3Gf93Ln

Rosy: A women’s health and wellness site that uses erotica as one of their resources to increase sexual desire

eLust: A monthly publication with broad-ranging content that includes stories, poetry, advice, reviews, and insights from writers

Theo: A site containing stories from romance on up from some of the greatest writers of our generation

Stories, blog posts and/or commentary can also be found at

ramonequides.com

Instagram, BlueSky, Threads and Twitter as @ramonequides

Summary:
Discover how embracing creativity later in life led Ramone to find his voice through erotic storytelling. In this episode, Ramone shares his transformation from a life of emotional repression to becoming a passionate writer of diverse and healing erotic literature.

The conversation explores how societal expectations initially stifled Ramone's self-expression until a pivotal moment in his 40s changed everything. After dedicating a year to creative exploration, he emerged with three distinct stories under a carefully chosen pseudonym, channeling years of "quiet desperation" into empowering narratives.

We dive deep into discussions about the intersection of creativity, sexuality, and personal growth. Ramone reveals how his journey has not only enhanced his writing but also deepened his relationship with his partner, leading to more open communication and a flourishing intimate life well into his 60s.

Listen now to discover how it's never too late to pursue your passion and find personal freedom through art.

Excerpt:  Enjoy an excerpt at the end of the interview from Ramone's story "A Second Chance at Submission" narrated by Ruan Willow.

Key Takeaways:

• Ramon began writing erotic stories later in life, highlighting that it's never too late to pursue creative passions.  
• He views erotic literature as a powerful tool for emotional healing and personal growth, challenging societal norms around sexuality.  
• The episode emphasizes midlife as an opportunity for self-acceptance and deeper intimacy, promoting open communication in relationships.

Chapters

• 1:19:30 Fiction Excerpt from A Second Chance at Submission

Transcript

This transcript was created by Cleanvoice ai and was not edited by a human so it will have errors. Please excuse the errors. Email any questions to ruanwillow@gmail.com

This transcript does not include the excerpt from the piece of fiction at the end of the episode.

Season 5 of Oh F*ck Yeah with Ruan Willow Podcast, Guest Ramone Quides.

Episode 598. Copyright 2025 Pink Infinity Publishing LLC, All Rights Reserved. No AI training.

00:00:02 SPEAKER_02
Hello, everyone. This is Ruan Willow, and I'm super excited you're here because we have a really fun topic. And the person I'm discussing it with is an author, a writer, just like me. So it's always exciting for me to talk to other authors, other writers. I never get tired of that. I just love it because we're all so different. We're kind of similar, but we're all kind of different at the same time. And so I'm going to introduce you to this person, and then I'm going to say the name of my podcast. And I don't wait to say the name of my podcast. Some people know why. Because there's a word in there that some places don't like. We are going to talk about it. I did not ask how to say your name. Will you say your name for me?

00:00:39 SPEAKER_00
Ramone Quides.

00:00:40 SPEAKER_02
Ramone Quides. Oh, thank you. Okay. Ramone Quides is a Renaissance polymath who discovered the joys and fulfillment of creative writing later in life. He enjoys writing diverse, connective stories that elevate and celebrate all the places the unencumbered minds can wander. The array of fictional literary erotica he's dreamt up for your enjoyment are intended to tickle your overt and covert interests and fantasies. His celebrations of varied genders, interests, and preferences have been published in The Big Book of Quickies by Rachel Kramer Bustle, Erotica for Men and the Women Who Love Them, Volume 2 by Rose Carraway, Rosie, a woman health and wellness site that uses erotica as one of their resources to increase sexual desire, e -lust, a monthly publication with broad -ranging content that includes stories, poetry, advice, reviews, and insights from writers, and Theo, a site containing stories from romance on up from some of the greatest writers of our generation. Stories, blog posts, and or commentary can also be found at RamonKittis .com. Instagram, Blue Sky, Threads, Twitter has Ramon Kittis, and the last name is spelled Q -U -I -D -E -S. That'll be done on the podcast show notes. Welcome to Oh Fuck Yeah with Ruin Willow. This is my podcast where I have erotica fiction on Tuesdays and interviews on Fridays. Welcome, Ramon. I'm so excited to talk with you.

00:02:06 SPEAKER_00
I am really geeked on your podcast because for a few reasons. Number one, I'm a visual and audio learner. I have always struggled with reading. podcasts just are the world to me as are audio books and things like that.

00:02:26 SPEAKER_01
So those help an awful lot.

00:02:26 SPEAKER_00
those help an awful lot. I'm also really gay because I've listened to some of your episodes before and I was going back through them and I see so many of the people that inspired me and mentored me and helped me along in this fairly recent journey that I've taken in life.

00:02:40 SPEAKER_01
and helped me along in

00:02:42 SPEAKER_00
this fairly recent journey that I've taken in life. So I'm just so honored to be Here now, I'm part of that. And lastly, I got to tell you, I had an oh yeah moment this morning. We have family members that have to eat gluten -free and I'm a recipe creator. So we found a place that has an awesome gluten -free sourdough bread.

00:03:01 SPEAKER_01
creator. So we

00:03:04 SPEAKER_00
found a place that has an awesome gluten -free sourdough bread.

00:03:10 SPEAKER_02
Oh, nice.

00:03:10 SPEAKER_00
nice. I toasted a piece of that with some of the hatch chili jam that I made.

00:03:16 SPEAKER_02
And it was, it was,

00:03:17 SPEAKER_00
it was, it was, oh, fuck yeah, mom.

00:03:21 SPEAKER_02
I love that. I love that for multiple reasons. You found something that works for your diet. And under my real name, I have, I have recipe and cookbook. So that's another area that I'm like, woo, you know, I'm kind of crazy about that as well. Like I love to cook and create recipes. So I totally understand where you're coming from on that one. But you know, I just realized I haven't said the topic of our, We're obviously going to talk about writing, but the main thing that we're going here for is the healing power of smut. Reading and writing it, and I have multiple people who are going to talk with me, so I'm really excited about this because it's going to end up being like a series because I've got writers, I've got authors of smut, I've got readers of smut, and so we're going to have all these amazing perspectives in this series. So thank you for coming on and talking about this.

00:04:06 SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, and it hits home both professionally and personally. So this is just a great topic.

00:04:14 SPEAKER_02
It really is. And it's a thing that a lot of people decide to yuck. We're not supposed to yuck other people's yums. A lot of people live by that, but a lot of people don't. And so a lot of people out there are yucking it. And then I'm like, you know, go stay in your own lane if you're going to yuck it. I don't want to hear your yuck.

00:04:31 SPEAKER_00
Bless your heart.

00:04:34 SPEAKER_02
So what for you started the smut journey, the erotica, whatever you want to call it. People call it different things. Spicy. Some people call it spicy. What started it for you? Was it the reading or the writing? Or how did you start down the road? Well,

00:04:50 SPEAKER_00
to keep this brief, I lived a very oppressed life because of the people that influenced me from birth on up. And so I was confined mentally to how someone was supposed to be, how someone was supposed to act, and what were they. And within that, of course, there were all the things you never talk about. If I chopped my arm off using a saw, it was, well, put a Band -Aid on it and get back to work. Yeah, right.

00:05:18 SPEAKER_01
I chopped

00:05:25 SPEAKER_01
right.

00:05:26 SPEAKER_00
Okay. So it was not masculine. It was not manly to express emotion unless we were. Unless we were playing soccer against each other.

00:05:26 SPEAKER_01
Okay. So

00:05:35 SPEAKER_00
And then also there were early life experiences that forced me to play a role in life. And I spent most of my life thinking it till I made it. That's just how things played out. So the reason I bring that up was I didn't really start to self -discover who I was. Never had the chance to discover. was what i liked until my 40s a little bit and that happened because i i reached one of the beautiful crossroads in life when you realize you can actually be free in context because the amount of money or wealth or prestige you've achieved in life bisects and and just overwhelms expectations you know i was at the point where it's like i could sure you fire me if you want

00:06:23 SPEAKER_00
and just overwhelms expectations you know i was at the point where it's like i could sure you fire me if you want I'm fine. Right. And so I was able to start saying things that other people say, you can't go say that.

00:06:41 SPEAKER_00
And then more into my later 50s, mid 50s, finally got confirmed diagnosis of my ADHD. And I'd already known about my split personality between cyber success driven.

00:06:50 SPEAKER_01
I'd already

00:06:56 SPEAKER_00
success driven. hyper analytical and highly inclusive and in the bedroom those things had i had utilized those things to some extent in part of the loving exploration my partner i had but um you know socially i was a hyper introvert because i didn't talk well and all those things i talked about so this culminates

00:07:09 SPEAKER_00
part of the loving exploration my partner i had but um you know socially i was a hyper introvert because i didn't talk well and all those things i talked about so

00:07:21 SPEAKER_01
i talked about

00:07:23 SPEAKER_00
this culminates To a magical moment where my partner and I, in supporting family, were apart for about eight or nine months. And I'd been dabbling with the thought of trying to write something like this. I'd never been good at creative writing. Let's just get that on the table.

00:07:42 SPEAKER_00
But I'm also a total nerd about learning. I think it's called epistomophilia.

00:07:51 SPEAKER_00
But anyway, total, total nerd for learning.

00:07:55 SPEAKER_00
And so because we were apart, I mentally felt I had a safe space to dive in. And so I gave myself roughly one year. And I said, I am going to study and learn and listen and immerse. And I am going to write three stories from three different genres or tropes or whatever.

00:08:16 SPEAKER_01
or whatever.

00:08:18 SPEAKER_00
And I'm going to fail. I know I'm going to fail. But that's cool. I just, I always do a couple new challenges or things every year, learn something completely different.

00:08:30 SPEAKER_01
Very cool. So this was just a continuation of life learning.

00:08:30 SPEAKER_00
So this was just a continuation of life learning. And so I did this and I came up with a name and an author name because God forbid anyone came across this,

00:08:39 SPEAKER_00
author name because God forbid anyone came across this,

00:08:43 SPEAKER_02
this, right? So the first name is Bernie Mac's character in the Ocean Eleven movie.

00:08:44 SPEAKER_00
right? So the first name is Bernie Mac's character in the Ocean Eleven movie. I just really love Burning Mac. And I misspelled it a bit intentionally.

00:08:56 SPEAKER_01
The last name is a blend.

00:08:57 SPEAKER_00
is a blend. It is Q -U -I -D -E -S. Quiet desperation. Because I had this bottle of quiet desperation inside of me. It was just trying to get out and be myself.

00:09:14 SPEAKER_00
So that's where the name came from. So I wrote three stories. The first one. It was called Cart Girl, just a male -female stranger entanglement. It took me five months to write that story, which was only about 2 ,000 words.

00:09:31 SPEAKER_02
Oh, wow.

00:09:34 SPEAKER_00
Because I have some memory issues, and I've always had memory issues. So anyway, it took me about five months, but during that time... I was, because I'm a nerd, I was listening to and reading from people that know writing, like Heather Whitaker and Rachel in the OC and Rachel Kramer -Bussell and Oleander Plume, who I really loved. Because when I sent her a story, she said,

00:10:05 SPEAKER_01
I really

00:10:08 SPEAKER_00
said, you know, I'm going to be brutal. I said, perfect. You were right down my alley. And I'm so lucky to discover Rose Carraway and the Kiss Me Quick podcast and all the stories and the way she read just sung in my mind.

00:10:19 SPEAKER_00
lucky to discover Rose Carraway and the Kiss Me Quick podcast and all the stories and the way she read just sung in my mind.

00:10:28 SPEAKER_01
Sure, sure. And then knowledge side,

00:10:29 SPEAKER_00
And then knowledge side, well, Dr. Lee Miller, Dr. J, Sex with Emily, Shameless Sex,

00:10:37 SPEAKER_01
with Emily,

00:10:40 SPEAKER_00
the Glow West podcast from Ireland was amazing. So, yeah. And then lastly, as I was writing these stories, I actually befriended some people in that kind of lived whatever lifestyle I was writing about. Oh. And for whatever reason,

00:10:57 SPEAKER_00
whatever reason, they were willing to read and give me feedback because I'm really huge on accuracy. Yeah, nice. So the first one was this golf cart or beer cart girl interaction. The second one was a pulsated yearning. About a couple where the man has wanted to experience sex with another man. And his wife winds up setting it up for him. Sure. Through a mutual acquaintance. And actually the third one, I was thinking back. There are actually two more that came out right around there. One was called Reclaimed Lust. About a couple where the husband's business is doing horribly and he's completely neglecting their relationship. And the wife says, enough's enough. We're going to have a night.

00:11:51 SPEAKER_00
And then the last one was called Eggs and Cream, and it's a very brief cuckolding story. So I knocked those out.

00:11:59 SPEAKER_00
knocked those out. Well, worst thing possible, maybe, at the time, happened. Cartgirl has always had great review, great start ratings. Saked Yearnings was picked up by Rose Carraway to put in the book that you mentioned. Nice.

00:12:16 SPEAKER_02
Yes. And Reclaim Lust was picked up by the Rosie app.

00:12:17 SPEAKER_00
And Reclaim Lust was picked up by the Rosie app. And it's like, oh, shit.

00:12:27 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, this is getting real, right? It's getting real. This is getting real.

00:12:30 SPEAKER_00
This is getting real. And not only is it getting real, it got 1099 form real.

00:12:31 SPEAKER_02
it getting

00:12:36 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yes. Now you got evidence.

00:12:38 SPEAKER_00
So now I had to tell my partner what it was up to.

00:12:41 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah. And she actually has a master's degree in literature and creative writing.

00:12:44 SPEAKER_00
actually has a master's degree in literature and creative writing. Oh. So after some struggles in talking about it, because she felt I'd betrayed her in some ways, you know, we talked it out. But now she edits some of my stuff.

00:12:56 SPEAKER_02
know, we talked

00:12:59 SPEAKER_00
she edits some of my stuff.

00:13:01 SPEAKER_02
Oh, nice.

00:13:03 SPEAKER_00
And she has actually written in a... spicy romance novella of her own that just published so she's come way around then she's even do writing herself she wrote herself and coming back to topic so I've talked about as I've been writing this stuff and she's been reading this stuff and we've been able to expand and wander around the whole pool of

00:13:11 SPEAKER_02
she's come way around then she's even do writing herself she

00:13:17 SPEAKER_00
wrote herself and coming back to topic so I've talked about as I've been writing this stuff and she's been reading this stuff and we've been able to expand and wander around the whole pool of you know sensuality and sexuality and that has really grown and so all of this all of this has put topics on the table that we really didn't talk about or alluded to or and far more importantly it gave us an ability to communicate these ideas these fantasies these topics to each other yeah oh 100 percent

00:13:59 SPEAKER_02
100 percent

00:14:00 SPEAKER_00
Because that was a barrier for many decades, is we both had various fantasies and interests, but we just didn't want to bring them up. Or it was, we talked about this the other day. She said, well, I touched you on the shoulder. I said, and? Well, I wanted sex. And it's like.

00:14:20 SPEAKER_02
Right. And what universe does that mean? Sex, right? Like, that's not universal. That's in her head. Right?

00:14:29 SPEAKER_00
So anyway, yeah. So on a personal level, there's been so much expansion and growth and glory.

00:14:38 SPEAKER_02
glory. I love it. Yeah. And I'll just come out and tell you,

00:14:39 SPEAKER_00
And I'll just come out and tell you, we're in our 60s and having, honestly, the best overall time of our lives.

00:14:47 SPEAKER_02
That is awesome.

00:14:48 SPEAKER_00
awesome. When it comes to intimacy and connection.

00:14:53 SPEAKER_02
I love that.

00:14:54 SPEAKER_00
And then just the... Writing site, I mentioned these other things. The Rosie app that I mentioned was founded by a gynecologist who recognizes the value of erotica.

00:15:07 SPEAKER_02
Oh, that's so nice. Oh, I need to check that out. What a great thing.

00:15:09 SPEAKER_00
need to check that

00:15:12 SPEAKER_00
It's a great thing. And I have about a dozen stories there.

00:15:18 SPEAKER_00
They're the ones that bought Reclaimed Blast.

00:15:22 SPEAKER_00
Blast. So, yeah.

00:15:24 SPEAKER_02
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

00:15:27 SPEAKER_00
So that's an app,

00:15:27 SPEAKER_02
So that's an app, right? Is that an app? Rosie's an app?

00:15:30 SPEAKER_00
an app?

00:15:31 SPEAKER_02
It's an app.

00:15:31 SPEAKER_00
an app. And you can get a free 30 -day trial to check it out.

00:15:35 SPEAKER_02
Oh, sure. And now does it have audio stories or just stories you read?

00:15:39 SPEAKER_00
Both. Yeah. So the stories, some of them are just written. More of them are also audio.

00:15:46 SPEAKER_02
Okay. Okay. That is very cool. So this has been very opening for yourself personally and in your relationship. And I feel like a lot of people I talk to who have reached midlife is somehow or some way and they're involved in any sort of spicy writing or sexuality. They all have had this happen to them more opened up in their midlife. Like this is a very common theme. And I think it's wonderful because often we have the bad opinion of midlife, you know, oh, over the hill. Oh, you're just you're having a midlife crisis. No, we're actually realized, like you said, we can be ourselves and we start to not care what others think. Or maybe when we're younger, we really cared. So this is a really common theme. And I think that this is really wonderful for younger people to hear that all of us in midlife are experiencing this and finding wonderful things. There's something to look forward to if they aren't doing this yet. Maybe they will when they hit their 40s, right?

00:16:50 SPEAKER_00
Well, I think, though, if we break it down, midlife, actual crisis. That's the part of why is it even a crisis? Well, because there's been responsibilities or we all continue to change who we are and what we think throughout our lives. Right. So the crisis part of that is simply because the means of communication have stumbled or were never there. Yeah. Otherwise, it's not a crisis. When I'm mentoring students.

00:17:24 SPEAKER_00
I let them know every relationship in your life is a three -legged stool.

00:17:29 SPEAKER_00
Bring you, you bring they or them, and you bring the joint, what the two of you are. And there's connecting rods between those legs. And so unless you nurture, pay attention to all three, something's going to get weak. Something may break down.

00:17:51 SPEAKER_01
may break

00:17:54 SPEAKER_00
So, and that's okay. If you keep communicating, then you recognize, hey, here's a point where, okay, this fed what it was meant to feed or this, you know, handled what it meant to handle. And it may be this time to let it crumble and fall. And that's okay. Yeah. You know, but anyway, so, yeah, it's not a crisis. if you haven't just you know kept communicating talking and you know in the united states you know we're not supposed to do that right we're not supposed to talk about sex right well they don't know what they're talking about because we're talking about on podcast sex on podcast all over the fucking place so they're just kind of clueless and stupid i think could be they want their way but they're not going to get it you know like that's it and that's and that's and that's cool but to

00:18:28 SPEAKER_02
supposed to talk

00:18:32 SPEAKER_02
they don't know what they're talking about because we're talking about on podcast sex on podcast all over the fucking place so they're just kind of clueless and stupid i think could be they want their way but they're not going to get it you know like that's it and

00:18:45 SPEAKER_00
that's and that's and that's cool but to Let people know that you're enabled to do this.

00:18:54 SPEAKER_02
Yes.

00:18:54 SPEAKER_00
Is a big deal.

00:18:57 SPEAKER_02
It is. And I always think about the fact that I'm a whole person, right? Like I'm a whole person. I'm not a person that doesn't have sexuality in me. It's not over here. I don't put it over here. It's in me. I'm a whole person. So if somebody finds out that I do this, I don't care. My response is I'm a whole person. I am a sexual being. I have given. I've been given these organs to feel things. I've been given these emotions to feel things. I've been given these desires. I've developed these desires. And I am not going to deny it. You know, like, deal with it. I'm a sexual being. Then just, if you don't like it, don't talk to me. Don't look at me. Go away.

00:19:33 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, for a few years, I did religious education.

00:19:38 SPEAKER_01
Yes. In the Catholic Church.

00:19:39 SPEAKER_00
the Catholic Church. And I was talking to the teenagers. Mentoring them and was actually doing some marriage counseling. I'm sorry. I was talking to young people that were considering getting married.

00:19:57 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, like pre -marriage. And of course,

00:19:58 SPEAKER_00
And of course, you know, there's a whole thing about you're not supposed to have sex until you're married and then you're supposed to know everything.

00:20:04 SPEAKER_02
Right. Magic. So it is.

00:20:06 SPEAKER_00
is. It's in the holy water.

00:20:08 SPEAKER_01
in the holy

00:20:09 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. But what I told them, it ruffled some feathers. was that human beings and like one or two other mammals in the universe are able to experience pleasure when it comes to procreation. Right. And that is so amazingly special.

00:20:32 SPEAKER_00
is so amazingly special.

00:20:35 SPEAKER_02
It is. Okay.

00:20:35 SPEAKER_00
Okay. So if you take that and you take the fact that in a relatively normal, healthy relationship, After you've committed yourselves to each other, you will likely have intercourse thousands of times.

00:20:53 SPEAKER_00
Average likely, okay? So you get to decide if you want to wait.

00:20:57 SPEAKER_00
get to decide if you want to wait. That's all on you. But I just let you know, it's likely you're going to be able to have a shot of experiences and enjoying it hundreds or thousands, you know, thousands of times. So putting it off a little while for that reason, you know, again, that's your call. Yep. You know, but I know how you said your sensuality, your sexuality is going to be part of you. So I'm not telling you to run off and start wild animalistic sex, but it's not a bad idea to explore or understand each other well enough to know that you are comfortable.

00:21:32 SPEAKER_01
not a bad

00:21:36 SPEAKER_00
or understand each other well enough to know that you are comfortable. with that because your life's gonna have it every day of every year you're together right you know and i i myself am a christian too but i believe that you know you still need to know if your sexuality's mesh before you get married and and i i don't believe in waiting because i feel like that is so important to know and but the other thing with that is too a lot of young people don't necessarily know their first sexuality because we are not allowed to explore it we're not it's not seen as okay

00:21:48 SPEAKER_02
you know and i i myself am a christian too but i believe that you know you still need to know if your sexuality's mesh before you get married and and i i don't believe in waiting because i feel like that is so important to know and but the other thing with that is too a lot of young people don't necessarily know their first sexuality because we are not allowed to explore it we're not it's not seen as okay To explore it. I think that that is a problem, too. So, you know, people who are getting married, you know, even if they talk about it, they probably don't know their full range of sexuality at all. I didn't as a young person.

00:22:25 SPEAKER_00
Well, and that will keep changing throughout your life.

00:22:27 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you're right. And it will. Exactly. And so that's the limiting the crisis part of midlife crisis through just staying connected and communicating.

00:22:28 SPEAKER_00
And it will. Exactly. And so that's the limiting the crisis part of midlife crisis through just staying connected and communicating.

00:22:40 SPEAKER_02
I think we need a name change for that. Maybe we need a midlife realization instead of a crisis. Because otherwise,

00:22:45 SPEAKER_00
a crisis. Because otherwise, I've had one or two years since I was born.

00:22:50 SPEAKER_02
Right, right. It doesn't just stop at one, right? It's not like you can't eat just one cookie, you know? It's going to keep going.

00:22:56 SPEAKER_01
keep going. There you go.

00:22:59 SPEAKER_02
You know, and I think that that's a thing to accept, too. I think, you know, we do need to realize that we change throughout our lives. And we're not going to stay the same sexual being that we were when we were young. Like you said, even from year to year, we may change.

00:23:13 SPEAKER_00
Okay, so I'll confess here on recorded audio that I actually drank and enjoyed tea for the first time in my life.

00:23:25 SPEAKER_02
So there you go.

00:23:27 SPEAKER_01
you go.

00:23:28 SPEAKER_02
You had tea. That makes me laugh. Yes, I understand. You know, we don't stay the same, right? Like we try different things. And I am actually think that's a wonderful thing because we can become more ourselves.

00:23:49 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. And I mean, it's what we're, you know, from the day we're born, we don't come out of the womb knowing how to ride a bike and run and do math. Okay. So. So, yeah, there's things that we continue to learn and explore and don't even know to learn and explore. And going back to my mentoring and tutoring, especially with middle school age, is I get them to maybe celebrate failure a little bit more. Yeah,

00:24:18 SPEAKER_02
to maybe

00:24:21 SPEAKER_02
Yeah,

00:24:22 SPEAKER_00
yeah, sure. Because everything in that, you know, when you're in elementary school, everything's very, they're not all black and white. And they said, we're not supposed to fail. And I said, well, you've been failing all your life to learn.

00:24:29 SPEAKER_01
said, we're not

00:24:33 SPEAKER_00
So I don't want you to feel bad about failure. And it's never a failure. As long as you look back and say, hey, so what did I get wrong? What did I get right? What did I didn't even know about? Did I know more about that? Yeah.

00:24:46 SPEAKER_01
I know more

00:24:48 SPEAKER_00
You know, and sex is the same. We've had some hilarious failures in the bedroom.

00:24:53 SPEAKER_02
bedroom. That's great. Oh, for sure. And I love that you're both open. You know, obviously it didn't quite start out that way when you started writing and you had to go through that. But, you know, the hard thing that I think is, it's just kind of sad that in our culture, you felt like you couldn't share it with her because of probably your upbringing, right? Like you felt like this is me. I want to try this. And then it got bigger than you expected. And then you had to share. But you didn't feel like initially you wanted to share it. You didn't feel comfortable. Sharing it.

00:25:27 SPEAKER_00
Well, that's just, that's just not what a man does. Right.

00:25:31 SPEAKER_02
Right. It was that mentality. Yeah.

00:25:36 SPEAKER_02
And then the whole, like you said, the whole religious thing really, really, really is hard for a lot of people to deal with because it's so rigid. It's, you know. Yeah. Well,

00:25:50 SPEAKER_00
you know, and also, I mean, everyone can kind of pick their level of, you know. what they're comfortable with, all that. I think it's, you know, that's great. That's you. But yeah, fundamentally, like I said, just the way life played out starting early in life, I never really had the chance to know and discover myself. So that didn't give me the ability to even consider and question nearly as much as the average person. It was nose to the grindstone.

00:26:23 SPEAKER_02
Right.

00:26:26 SPEAKER_02
So now, how do you give yourself, do you feel like you have to give yourself further permissions to write things, or do you feel pretty open, like I can write anything within sexuality that I feel an inkling to do?

00:26:40 SPEAKER_00
Great question. God, I love that. Okay, two things. Number one, Dr. J, who has mentored me along for about six years now, has a really great phrase, and you talked to her about it on your episode.

00:26:51 SPEAKER_01
a really

00:26:57 SPEAKER_00
Writing sex scenes versus scenes with sex. Yeah, right.

00:27:02 SPEAKER_00
So when I write scenes that may contain sex,

00:27:07 SPEAKER_00
that may contain sex, because the mind is the biggest organ, and if sex doesn't really build and thrive in the mind, the physical act is going to be lacking.

00:27:12 SPEAKER_00
mind is the biggest organ, and if sex doesn't really build and thrive in the mind, the physical act is going to be lacking. Even if the intent was, no, we're just going to wham bam. Even there, there's a mental aspect that plays into that, right? True. So there's that. And then the other thing, as I started to write and was surprisingly successful, I then decided to push myself one step further and I started writing stories that do not designate gender.

00:27:43 SPEAKER_00
successful, I then decided to push myself one step further and I started writing stories that do not designate gender.

00:27:54 SPEAKER_02
Right.

00:27:55 SPEAKER_00
They do not designate sexuality. I wrote stories that were open -ended. And then once I really felt like I handled connection and communication and everything that embodied the theme of the story, then I would go back in and decide now, is this a male, a female, a trans? Are they gay, straight, whatever?

00:28:23 SPEAKER_02
Wow, interesting.

00:28:26 SPEAKER_00
It was a fun challenge, but it's created some of my best stories.

00:28:30 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, what an interesting thing to do. Yes, you're focusing on the connection that has nothing to do at first with gender or sexuality. That's really interesting.

00:28:41 SPEAKER_00
So there was one that I wrote about a person in an apartment excited that... They got their work done so early that they're going to be able to watch their favorite show,

00:28:46 SPEAKER_00
person in an apartment excited that... They got their work done so early that they're going to be able to watch their favorite show, and then there's a blackout, and they come out, and they wind up spying someone they don't recognize, and it turns into them having sex.

00:29:03 SPEAKER_00
That whole thing was written. It's like, okay, what gender? Where do I think this is going to fit?

00:29:08 SPEAKER_01
I think this is going to fit? Yeah.

00:29:15 SPEAKER_01
And that was it. That was it.

00:29:18 SPEAKER_02
That's amazing. That's quite the approach to writing a story. I don't think I've ever heard that one. That's a unique one. And that is really very intriguing.

00:29:28 SPEAKER_00
Thank you. And what it does is it pushes my growth. Yeah. My ability to think and recognize who I am and what my possibilities are.

00:29:32 SPEAKER_01
My ability

00:29:37 SPEAKER_00
what my possibilities are. So again, I am making myself a better, more rounded person. in the process.

00:29:49 SPEAKER_02
So do you find yourself, when you're first approaching a story, are you going at it for the storyline? Because it sounds like you don't start with the characters. Like some people start with the actual characters.

00:30:03 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I do start around the storyline. I voice to text all sorts of inspirations. Whether I'm out on a hiking trail or whether I'm roaming or just taking a walk or a bicycle ride, whatever. And I just took a glance. I've got about 200 inspirations noted.

00:30:26 SPEAKER_02
Nice. And some of them are in various forms of story or whatever.

00:30:27 SPEAKER_00
And some of them are in various forms of story or whatever. But yeah,

00:30:33 SPEAKER_00
most of my things are things that I hear or see. That it's like, oh, that'd be interesting. And every once in a while, it's combining. Well, let's take this part, this part, this part. I think those. And the thing is, I'm not a trained writer. I spent decades writing highly technical documents. So I can nerd out, no problem. But human connection and creative writing are not something that I am very good at inherently.

00:30:57 SPEAKER_01
But human

00:30:58 SPEAKER_00
connection and creative writing are not something that I am very good at inherently.

00:31:07 SPEAKER_00
So there's like the other morning I was doing my other podcast. I was in my other podcast for a couple hours as a participant. I wound up cranking out two stories of about a thousand words each.

00:31:21 SPEAKER_02
Nice. Yeah.

00:31:21 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. And then there's other days, other times I'll go an entire week. I just can't write.

00:31:28 SPEAKER_01
I just can't get out of my way.

00:31:28 SPEAKER_00
can't get out of my way.

00:31:32 SPEAKER_00
So it's all just a beautiful evolution.

00:31:38 SPEAKER_02
That is very cool. Now, so you don't have it, because that's one of the things I was going to ask too, like to have a set routine of your writing, because some people are like, I write 20 minutes and I stop, or they have all these different routines that I've come across.

00:31:53 SPEAKER_00
My routine is to write something every day.

00:31:58 SPEAKER_01
There's what we're talking about. I also...

00:32:03 SPEAKER_00
under another name i have social commentary essays and articles and things i've published and there's a book i was writing before i tried this and i really do need to get back and finish it on economics yes so yeah there's other there's there's diversity out there and it's just you know sometimes if i can't get this going i said okay go back and write that next chapter on economics

00:32:13 SPEAKER_00
a book i was writing before i tried this and i really do need to get back and finish it on economics yes

00:32:21 SPEAKER_00
yeah there's other there's there's diversity out there and it's just you

00:32:21 SPEAKER_02
there's other

00:32:26 SPEAKER_00
know sometimes if i can't get this going i said okay go back and write that next chapter on economics

00:32:33 SPEAKER_00
Right. Yeah. But as long as I write every day.

00:32:37 SPEAKER_02
That's a good plan. That's a good plan. And if you don't, then, oh, well, right. But you try, in other words.

00:32:45 SPEAKER_00
Well, there's that and also tend to be awake about three or more hours before my partner is.

00:32:52 SPEAKER_02
Oh, sure.

00:32:54 SPEAKER_00
So that's my, I do some few games and things to freshen my mind up and then see what kind of writing I want to knock out.

00:33:04 SPEAKER_02
I'm a morning writer, too. I just do better writing in the morning because my brain isn't clogged with all the other things I have to do. I just feel freer. It flows easier for me if I write in the mornings, too.

00:33:17 SPEAKER_00
Absolutely the same for me. And sometimes I'm out for a run, and I'm just voice -detesting. Sure. Yeah, the story.

00:33:28 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah. I know people who have written entire books that way, right? Mm -hmm. You know, that's been around for a long time too, right? Like everybody's talking about all this AI stuff, but that's been around for quite a while to be able to do the voice to text.

00:33:35 SPEAKER_00
for a long

00:33:40 SPEAKER_02
be able to do the voice to text.

00:33:40 SPEAKER_00
the voice to text. It really has. Eggs and Cream was written while I climbed a peak into local mountains.

00:33:47 SPEAKER_02
Oh, cool.

00:33:52 SPEAKER_02
So do you have a favorite one of the ones you've written? Or is it just too hard to pick?

00:33:59 SPEAKER_00
I mean, I love all my babies. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Well, it's hard for me to remember them.

00:34:08 SPEAKER_00
But, no, I mean, that very first story, Cart Girl, that I wrote about five years ago, and put it up in Literatica, I think, initially. You know, it was free to put it there.

00:34:21 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Well,

00:34:24 SPEAKER_00
you know, Theo is launching a really fun collection of stories from basic romance on up. And so for Theo, it's free in there because it's been out there for free before. But I rewrote it. It was so much fun taking something from a number of years ago, reading it through, and then building off what I've learned since. And I rewrote it.

00:34:49 SPEAKER_01
it.

00:34:51 SPEAKER_00
It went from about 2 ,000 words to 4 ,000 words. Right. Yeah.

00:34:59 SPEAKER_00
Which, by the way, that's another struggle for me. in my past life uh the career i retired from hyper analytical high -tech innovation and yeah in that so i brought that mindset into the writing i started doing and immediately you know some of the great people that mentioned me along took a marker and slashed these first two pages you don't even need right you spent way too you know so so

00:35:28 SPEAKER_01
you spent way

00:35:28 SPEAKER_00
you spent way too you know so so That's something, you know, that and staying in the right, like I just finished a story and someone often looked at it and they said, half the story's in first person, half it's in third person. Yeah, it was so frustrating.

00:35:43 SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was so frustrating.

00:35:46 SPEAKER_00
Right. So, yeah. So, girl, like I said, having rewritten that, it doubled in size, but it's still, there are no dead spots in it.

00:36:00 SPEAKER_00
So I'm really, really proud of that.

00:36:05 SPEAKER_00
Reclaimed Lust is in Rosie.

00:36:09 SPEAKER_00
That one just really sings, even to this day, as does A Lesson in Sensuality. It's a two -part thing that's in Rosie. But then in Rachel's book of quickies, there was a call to write something around a thousand words.

00:36:27 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, which is a challenge.

00:36:29 SPEAKER_00
And so I blasted out a story called Double Fantasy, which is around a thousand words, and just had so much fun of working within the constraint of making,

00:36:42 SPEAKER_01
making, trying to make every word count.

00:36:42 SPEAKER_00
making, trying to make every word count. Not saying that books don't. I mean, I just actually, I just finished two novellas around. 20 to 25 ,000 words. Yep.

00:36:56 SPEAKER_02
Yep.

00:36:56 SPEAKER_00
One's in Theo, one I'm going to self -publish. Nice. And yeah, it's just been, I would have never, when I started this, I would have never thought I could write anything more than a thousand words.

00:37:10 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that's so amazing.

00:37:13 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. And it was Dr. J that pulled that thread on a lesson sensuality.

00:37:18 SPEAKER_00
lesson sensuality. She said, so what happens in part two? I said, well, there is no part two. And she said, I want a part two here.

00:37:27 SPEAKER_02
There isn't yet, but there will be.

00:37:30 SPEAKER_00
So she's the limit got me going.

00:37:33 SPEAKER_02
That's awesome. That's very cool. It's crazy to think of that kind of volume of words, right? Like it just seems like so many words and to get them all right or as right as you can.

00:37:45 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. And again, I'm so blessed to have some of the people that we edit each other's stuff. that have been willing to to read it and and you know you want people aren't just going to read it right you don't want people oh that that was nice or whatever and it's like yeah no no no come on if you want to lash me if you want to tie me to a post and lash me then do it okay that'll be just fine yeah i you yeah you do need the constructive feedback and you know you can get that from

00:38:04 SPEAKER_01
yeah no

00:38:06 SPEAKER_00
you want to lash me if you want to tie me to a post and lash me then do it okay that'll

00:38:06 SPEAKER_01
want to lash me if

00:38:13 SPEAKER_00
be just fine yeah

00:38:15 SPEAKER_02
i you yeah you do need the constructive feedback and you know you can get that from from reviews too but sometimes reviews are not always well -intentioned so you you can't you can't let it paralyze you either if someone says something also it is just one person's opinion so in that way you have to i believe you have to take reviews with a grain of salt because not everybody likes everything either you know well that's the tough so you can get reviews that are wow i just love that story or cart girl i one quick

00:38:41 SPEAKER_00
that's the tough so you can get reviews that are wow i just love that story or cart girl i one quick review or reader response i got this is so great i actually you know i remember doing that i remember these situations and all kind of stuff so you get those connective feedback things or hey i love this one to keep when you're going to print more and then you get the people for whom you've crossed a personal boundary yeah and that was and that was the eggs and cream story that is that has received

00:39:07 SPEAKER_02
and that

00:39:08 SPEAKER_00
that was and that was the eggs and cream story that is that has received

00:39:11 SPEAKER_02
is that

00:39:14 SPEAKER_00
feedback and reads than any of the stories triggering one yeah it's a it's a polarizing trigger either people are like oh my god that was so hot right there's no bleeping way anyone would ever do this or let them do the or yeah right and uh actually that's almost the kind of story that uh i make sure i write once in a while i want to

00:39:17 SPEAKER_02
one yeah it's

00:39:19 SPEAKER_00
a it's a polarizing trigger either people are like oh my god that was so hot right

00:39:26 SPEAKER_00
no bleeping way anyone would ever do this or let them do the or yeah right and uh actually that's almost the kind of story that uh i make sure i write once in a while i want to respectfully push the envelope. But that's also why I love sending it to people that are certain genders or live certain lifestyles.

00:39:50 SPEAKER_01
certain lifestyles.

00:39:52 SPEAKER_00
The cuckling stories I've written, I have two people that live that lifestyle and they have read and given me reality checks on some of the stuff I've written. And that's been great. I want to write. whatever i write i wanted to be i i would suck at trying to write sci -fi or anything or just you know something really out there there's got to be a connection of this could actually happen or you know you're missed you're misrepresenting the lesbian stories i've written you know i'm really proud that i've never had anyone who has read them who is um lesbian say you're you're misrepresenting

00:40:19 SPEAKER_01
got to be

00:40:23 SPEAKER_01
know you're

00:40:23 SPEAKER_00
know you're missed you're misrepresenting the lesbian stories i've written you know i'm really proud that i've never had anyone who has read them who is um lesbian say you're you're misrepresenting

00:40:39 SPEAKER_02
Ah, yeah. Yeah,

00:40:41 SPEAKER_00
this is so patriarchal here, patriarchal bullshit stuff.

00:40:45 SPEAKER_02
bullshit stuff.

00:40:46 SPEAKER_00
That's something that I've really worked hard to not even touch on.

00:40:50 SPEAKER_02
Yep, yep. And that brings me to another question. Is there something you refuse to write about in erotica that you will not touch, will not go there?

00:41:02 SPEAKER_00
There's things that I personally would never do or...

00:41:08 SPEAKER_00
Things that I just don't think I could wrap my writing around yet. But here's the disclaimer on the second. Everyone is simply, if people are simply living who they are, who they genuinely are, and that is their preference and that is their interest, I should be able to respectfully write about it. Right. And so I do have challenges. I haven't written any. trans stories but i know i could right whereas things like that include scat or some of these other things like i'm i'm just not gonna write that right there's others that'll write that but no i i really outside of personal boundaries i wouldn't want to associate because you as you know the public thinks we we live we do all these things i know

00:42:04 SPEAKER_02
You know, they do. And I was like, do you think all of these serial killer authors are serial killers?

00:42:10 SPEAKER_01
killers?

00:42:13 SPEAKER_02
They're secret serial killers. I don't think so. They've been to the moon. They've been to Mars, you know, like they've been a merman, you know, like what are you people talking about?

00:42:21 SPEAKER_01
been a merman,

00:42:22 SPEAKER_02
are you people talking about?

00:42:25 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. But yeah. So that's cute.

00:42:31 SPEAKER_02
When I was a mermaid, I. Like, it's just silly. It's silly. But people do think we've done it. And, like, people will automatically assume that you've done something. I will say most of my female characters have a piece of me in them.

00:42:34 SPEAKER_00
it's just

00:42:46 SPEAKER_02
It's a varying amount. It may be a little bit. It may be a lot. So that I will say. But, you know, I don't think I've never written a character that's fully me. Right? Like, that's never been a thing. You know,

00:43:00 SPEAKER_00
there, I think, I believe every story. But any writer has a piece of their mind. Yeah.

00:43:11 SPEAKER_00
Okay. But that's as far as it goes.

00:43:15 SPEAKER_02
Right. I agree.

00:43:17 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there's some semi -autobiographical stories out there, but, you know,

00:43:22 SPEAKER_01
know, that was fun.

00:43:22 SPEAKER_00
was fun.

00:43:25 SPEAKER_02
I mean, it's not called memoir for a reason, right? Like, you know, first of all, the person doesn't want it. To be known, even if they did completely write their own story, they're still calling it fiction. They're not calling it memoirs. You know, it's... Well,

00:43:39 SPEAKER_00
and let's face it, there's going to be times, at least early in writing careers, where you're going to lean into what you know.

00:43:47 SPEAKER_02
Yeah. Mm -hmm. Right. Okay.

00:43:52 SPEAKER_02
And that's fine. That's totally fine. And they don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I think it gets to be kind of sticky where people think you shouldn't write something you haven't done. It's like, well, then we wouldn't have fantasy. We wouldn't have sci -fi. We wouldn't have crime. We wouldn't have espionage. You know, these people aren't doing these things. We're using our imaginations based on reality. And yes, we do get sometimes get, like you said, we get input and consultants and stuff like that. But we're not doing this shit. Like, that's just so weird to me that then they turn around. And I don't know if it's sometimes I think it's because they. It's about sex and people think they, some people want you to be that character. They want you to have done those things like that. Maybe, you know, that's happened to me or like, you know, is this about you? Have you done this? And maybe they just want that, you know, as far as a kink. I don't know. I don't know.

00:44:41 SPEAKER_00
Well, so a mentor of mine once mentioned said, you know, you've used this name in a few of your stories or you have described.

00:44:50 SPEAKER_02
your stories or

00:44:52 SPEAKER_00
character this way yeah in a few stories and it wasn't saying so is that your fantasy it has been you want to stay diverse so just you know recognize just pointing out you know you've you've been leaning into this one and said now if you're going to make it a series that's great right but otherwise yeah think about you know diversifying and stuff but as you alluded to

00:45:11 SPEAKER_02
said now

00:45:16 SPEAKER_00
otherwise yeah think about you know diversifying and stuff but as you alluded to Humanity has never created anything that was totally original. We take little pieces here and there, things we knew, things we learned, and piece them together into something that's now new or different.

00:45:37 SPEAKER_00
that's now new or different. I really geek out on, I've got books that talk about things that were invented or discovered in history that were not the intended focus.

00:45:51 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yes.

00:45:51 SPEAKER_00
It's not what you wanted to get out of it, but along the way. Yeah. My quick favorite is German chemists were trying to make brilliant dyes in the late 1800s for the emperor. And there was this byproduct that only clogged up their drains. It had no value to them that they could figure out.

00:46:09 SPEAKER_01
they could figure out.

00:46:11 SPEAKER_00
A visiting French scientist said, do you mind if I take some? He said, we will send you all you want. That Frenchman was DuPont and he invented plastic.

00:46:23 SPEAKER_02
Oh, wow. That's crazy.

00:46:25 SPEAKER_00
So it's not that DuPont was looking for plastic. He took some of this garbage and put a new mindset on it.

00:46:28 SPEAKER_02
of this garbage

00:46:32 SPEAKER_02
Right. Did you ever hear the one that the dildos were created for women who were considered in hysteria?

00:46:38 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the treatment for hysteria. The treatment for hysteria.

00:46:39 SPEAKER_02
for hysteria. The treatment for hysteria. And it was like a dildo. That was electronic. And so then they would, the women would go to the doctor for the treatment. Well, actually, I think what I heard was that they would go to her treatment for hysteria and then there were too many. And then the doctors couldn't handle it. So then they created something electronic that was an electronic dildo for these women because there were too many women. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think it's really funny as heck. But it shows that, again, women were not, have not been necessarily given the sexual stimulation they've needed throughout. a very very long time in history and you know so that's yeah it was called something else it wasn't you know sexuality it wasn't they were horny it wasn't that they wanted to get off it was oh you're in your hysteria you're you have hysteria you know like it was labeled as that but that was one that i thought there's a way and now it's now it's the the dildo that are you know sex toys all over the place well true and it's it's also lack of recognition of even the clitoris

00:47:37 SPEAKER_00
true and it's it's also lack of recognition of even the clitoris Yes. As the exposed part. Forget about the fact that it has all these legs and nerve endings and all this stuff. Oh,

00:47:50 SPEAKER_02
yes. I have my model, which I do pull out, which a lot of people don't know what this is.

00:47:55 SPEAKER_00
know what this is.

00:47:56 SPEAKER_02
It's smaller than it is in actuality.

00:47:59 SPEAKER_00
What a weird looking turkey bone.

00:48:02 SPEAKER_02
I know. This is the clitoris. And yeah, the part that people think is a clitoris is just this little nubby thing at the end that I'm pinching. They don't know all of this. And this is too small. It's actually much larger than this. But this has largely been ignored. The entire female women have been gaslighted by medicine by not knowing this is in their body.

00:48:10 SPEAKER_00
don't know all

00:48:19 SPEAKER_02
have been gaslighted by medicine by not knowing this is in their body. They don't know this organ is in their body. The entirety of medical history of the modern world.

00:48:27 SPEAKER_00
entirety of

00:48:31 SPEAKER_00
world. Recall, right, that wasn't fully mapped until the 2000s. Yep. So there you go. It sits up there a lot.

00:48:38 SPEAKER_02
go. It sits up there a lot. That's, that's its spot. I forgot to put it up there. I often put it up there because so many people don't know what it is and they don't know what it looks like. And I'm like, you know, this is my, this is my little horsey that's riding my boom.

00:48:50 SPEAKER_00
There you go. All I want to do is a boom, boom.

00:48:55 SPEAKER_02
Exactly. All I want to do is a boom, boom. This is my boom, boom, my boom, boom, my boom, boom. Absolutely.

00:49:02 SPEAKER_00
Absolutely. I mean, think of how gaslighted we've been.

00:49:03 SPEAKER_02
I mean, think of how gaslighted we've been. You know, people don't know.

00:49:07 SPEAKER_00
You have been. I mean, look, I can use my Medicare to buy Viagra or get a surgery extension, whatever.

00:49:19 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.

00:49:20 SPEAKER_00
But yeah, so you're right. Women have been abused and done all that for far too long. And yeah, I don't think an inch should be given back on further study and recognition.

00:49:35 SPEAKER_02
Right. And there are more studies coming out there. But, you know, we know more about all the other organs in the body, human body, other than the clitoris. We don't know. Right. And I just did an interview yesterday with two women. They had never seen it. They didn't even know what it looked like.

00:49:54 SPEAKER_01
looked like.

00:49:54 SPEAKER_02
Right. And then I think back, I didn't know. I haven't known for decades what it looks like either.

00:50:01 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. Well, it's just like men. You can't ever envision getting past the penis on what the rest of their body could feel like or react or whatever. Right. And again, if that's where you want to be, okay, that's cool. But was it Ariel seeing there's a whole new world?

00:50:24 SPEAKER_02
Right, exactly. I'm not going to ruin the podcast by saying that.

00:50:26 SPEAKER_00
not going to ruin the podcast by saying

00:50:31 SPEAKER_02
But this, you know, and we alluded to this earlier, or you did. how how reading these stories it can be a sounding ground for relationships for new growth for hey you know read this story what do you what do you think about what happened in there it's it's a starting ground for communication in with couples with with you know people who are together not necessarily couples it could be even a throuple or whatever but it's it's a starting ground Obviously, if you're a thruple, you probably are more open anyways. Right. But, you know.

00:51:05 SPEAKER_00
Who knows, yeah.

00:51:08 SPEAKER_02
There's neighborhoods in Utah.

00:51:08 SPEAKER_00
There's neighborhoods in Utah.

00:51:10 SPEAKER_02
All right.

00:51:13 SPEAKER_02
Yeah. But it is a tool. It also can be a tool for people.

00:51:14 SPEAKER_00
But it is a

00:51:18 SPEAKER_00
And that's what, you know, that's Rosie's, part of Rosie's premise, but also. Yes. Okay. It can fit. There's many ways for it to fit into your. comfort zone and boundaries. If you want the scientific view, researcher view, go listen to Dr. Lee Miller. If you want the relational view, go listen to Sex with Emily. If you want the psychiatrist view, go listen to Esther Perel. There are, you can come at this from so many different ways that are within.

00:51:53 SPEAKER_01
are within.

00:51:55 SPEAKER_00
within your abilities and boundaries.

00:52:00 SPEAKER_02
What word would you use for erotica?

00:52:04 SPEAKER_02
Coming at it from what angle would that be?

00:52:09 SPEAKER_00
It's a great question because there's a social conflict going on of people. Feeling like if they're going to get their stuff seen, they can't use the word erotica anymore. They have to call it steamy stories. Right. And God knows how many variations of spelling the word sex people have to use just to get in on social media.

00:52:30 SPEAKER_02
on social media. Yeah, yeah.

00:52:33 SPEAKER_00
You know, so here's the only problem I have with erotica. It's been hijacked by the patriarchy.

00:52:43 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah,

00:52:45 SPEAKER_00
right. who have controlled the publication and distribution of let's call it smut whatever you want to call it or whatever and so when people find out i write quote erotica they immediately think i'm writing porn hub content as far as the really explicit women are there for men's pleasure whatever um right so that's

00:53:03 SPEAKER_01
far as the really

00:53:06 SPEAKER_00
are there for men's pleasure whatever um right so that's It's been interesting to try and come up with different ways to describe it, not because there's anything wrong with the word, but because the assumptions behind the word are too embedded.

00:53:22 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it's been ruined.

00:53:25 SPEAKER_00
Well, and okay, so maybe we just have to, it's not a matter of marketing it in a different way necessarily, but just create an acceptable content. And which is why I love the sources that I've leaned into are the ones that I've mentioned that, hey, this is, as you said at the beginning, this is part of being a human being. Yes. So let's not pornify it.

00:53:53 SPEAKER_00
not pornify it. Let's not sensationalize it. Let's just be it.

00:54:01 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because basically people are saying to deny your sexuality is to be... It's just I being a human and we are humans and we do have sexuality. We were given these organs. You know, like you said, there aren't very many species out there that feel pleasure. And this should be something that we're celebrating, not downplaying and hiding and shaming and saying that's horrible. I always use the example, we weren't given taste buds to not taste strawberries and pancakes. You know, like that's ludicrous. We were given these sexual organs to feel sexual pleasure. We weren't given ability to feel something soft to not feel it. Like, well, this is crazy. This is crazy that we have this view.

00:54:33 SPEAKER_01
We were

00:54:42 SPEAKER_02
is crazy that we have this view.

00:54:46 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. And I understand it's part of the control mechanism of, you know, major social powers.

00:54:55 SPEAKER_00
Doesn't mean we have to leave it alone or ignore it.

00:55:03 SPEAKER_00
Again, I love, I do use some of Dr. Lee Miller's statistics and information to at times influence things in my stories.

00:55:13 SPEAKER_02
Oh, sure. For sure.

00:55:14 SPEAKER_00
sure. For sure. But it's also why, like when I first started for Rosie, you know, they were launching the app and I said, okay, by the way, is your market going to be domestic only or are people overseas or in Canada? Because there are social norms and what's okay and not okay and various levels are going to be different. And I'm cognizant of, do I need to skew a story so that it would do well in Europe versus doing well here or things like that?

00:55:47 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, oh, for sure. Because it is a different environment. Over in Europe and in Canada versus the U .S. as far as views on sexuality and what's okay and what's normal. I hate the word normal. I don't like to use the word normal because there is no normal. There might be an average. I might call it that. But it's still even as hard to say that because there's such a wide range. Not everybody realizes there's a wide range either, though. They don't necessarily think. They think everyone's like them until they know that's not true.

00:56:16 SPEAKER_00
Well, as humans, psychologically as humans. our biology is to say no first to anything that has any uncertainty you know we were we hunted and gathered as groups we weren't individual hunters and gatherers primarily right so um yeah you know our our if there's any sense of uncertainty because we're on our own then we're going to lean into no first and until we find find a way to go hey that's cool so um as you said

00:56:23 SPEAKER_01
anything that

00:56:23 SPEAKER_00
anything that has any uncertainty you know we were we

00:56:25 SPEAKER_01
know we

00:56:27 SPEAKER_00
hunted and gathered as groups we weren't individual hunters and gatherers primarily right so um yeah you know our our if there's any sense of uncertainty because we're on our own then we're going to lean into no first and until we find find a way to go hey that's cool so um as you said Put it out there. If someone doesn't like it, say, okay, great. That didn't work for you. No problem. I'm a recipe creator. There's things I put together that are like, oh, that's going right down the garbage.

00:57:01 SPEAKER_02
That's horrible. That's terrible. That was horrible.

00:57:05 SPEAKER_00
was horrible. But the other day I made some pulled pork and I said, you know, I think a little bit of fig in this could be just perfect. Oh,

00:57:06 SPEAKER_02
But the other

00:57:12 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yes.

00:57:14 SPEAKER_00
oh yeah there's great creativity in cooking if you let yourself try it yeah oh for sure right at the same time i uh hosted a podcast on sexual lubes lubricants yep and and of course i researched it like crazy and the first thing i did is we threw out about a half dozen that we had because there were ingredients and things in there it's like hey yeah no no no you know right but but um

00:57:15 SPEAKER_02
yeah there's great creativity in cooking if you let yourself try it yeah oh for sure right

00:57:19 SPEAKER_00
at the same time i uh hosted a podcast on sexual lubes lubricants

00:57:27 SPEAKER_00
and of course i researched it like crazy and the first thing i did is we threw out about a half dozen that we had because

00:57:30 SPEAKER_02
we threw out

00:57:33 SPEAKER_00
there were ingredients and things in there it's like hey yeah no no no you know right but but um Yeah, so there's just ways to say, hey, you can still have what you want, but be aware of what's behind it and what you're getting into, and then, yeah, make your decisions.

00:58:05 SPEAKER_02
And that gets to be the challenge, which is why I really like the Theo Reads plan, because they have, you know, their little chili pepper thing where they're how many chili peppers is it? Do you want how many chili peppers you want to eat today? Maybe, you know, like there's different things, but it gets hard when you. When you're trying to put books out there and someone you're trying to meet readers expectations without. you know, either pissing them off or shocking them so that they never want to read anything again. But yet we are being herded a certain way that we can only say things a certain way, which is really very difficult as a person trying to create things to find your right readers, right? Like this is a challenge.

00:58:52 SPEAKER_00
It is a challenge. And I have a personal philosophy of I'll try anything twice. Because the first time in, I may not have known enough or I may have had too many assumptions. about what's going on. So if I walk into a Hawaiian restaurant and I order lau lau and I taste it,

00:59:09 SPEAKER_00
and I order lau lau and I taste it, it's like, oh, this is horrible. It doesn't mean that every other version of lau lau is going to be horrible. Right. It just means that next time I may need to ask the chef, I had this and it was horrible. So before I ordered it from you, You know, what's different? Same thing with stories like this. I would say, if you find one that's horrible, okay, at least be willing to maybe look at a variation of the thing and see if it's still horrible. Well, if that's the case, okay, that's where you're at. That's where you're at right now at this moment in your life, in your evolving.

00:59:50 SPEAKER_01
This is where you're at. Right.

00:59:54 SPEAKER_02
I think we also need to realize, too, like you're saying, this is where we're at, but to be open that. maybe someday you'll be in a different place. And some people can accept that and some people can't, right?

01:00:05 SPEAKER_00
Well, and then for my partner and I, at this point in our lives, we're remodeling the house and brought up certain things to do in the renovation. And it's like, you know, you're still thinking you're 20 years younger.

01:00:22 SPEAKER_00
I don't think we need an eye bolt in the rafters.

01:00:33 SPEAKER_00
Although the cutest thing I saw was someone had taken a smoke detector case. My smoke detector had gutted it. They put an eye bolt in the rafter and then they knocked the smoke detector shell over it. All they had to do was unscrew the cap.

01:00:46 SPEAKER_02
it. All

01:00:47 SPEAKER_00
it. All they had to do was unscrew the cap.

01:00:50 SPEAKER_02
Right. And they were ready to go. Ready to go.

01:00:52 SPEAKER_00
to go.

01:00:54 SPEAKER_02
That's pretty funny. Yeah, and I suppose when you're going to go to sell that house, you better tell them that's not a real smoke detector. You know, because if the inspector came in and was like, oh yeah, they've got enough, they've got extra fire alarms.

01:01:08 SPEAKER_00
Why are there two in that room?

01:01:12 SPEAKER_02
That's pretty funny.

01:01:16 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, this house I went to, they had like seven in one room or, you know, like every room had three.

01:01:26 SPEAKER_02
So what are you working on now? Is there anything you can share?

01:01:34 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, let's see. So I just, like I said, the other day I wrote two. I wrote one that I need to go through. Oh, yeah, your novellas.

01:01:41 SPEAKER_02
yeah, your novellas. Yeah, yeah.

01:01:45 SPEAKER_00
The two novellas, the one in Theo is called A Second Chance at Submission. It's about a guy that was sent off -site across the country for about a month and a half. And while he was there, he met this woman that excited. I mean, they were very interested in each other, but she had a Dom streak, and he just loved being the person for her. At a high level, very simple level, starting to explore that. Anyway, so his time is up. He has to go back home. And then a couple of few months later,

01:02:27 SPEAKER_00
couple of few months later, he's offered a full -time position out by her.

01:02:32 SPEAKER_01
her.

01:02:33 SPEAKER_00
Jumps at it, contacts her because they weren't able to stay connected, even though they said they would. And she's like, hey, I'd love to have you blah, blah, blah, come out here. But I have a boyfriend.

01:02:39 SPEAKER_01
she's like,

01:02:42 SPEAKER_00
I have a boyfriend. And so he's already signed all the papers he's doing. He was so sure about going. He says, I'm just going to go anyway. And he can't find a place to live. So he wants it moving in with them.

01:02:57 SPEAKER_00
And so that's the start of the story. And then the other one,

01:03:04 SPEAKER_00
the other one, the one that I want to self -published is called Queenie and Little Dick.

01:03:13 SPEAKER_00
It's about a married couple, and the guy has let Warren drive all of his interests and time, and he's losing connection with the wife. And she's been starting to think about, you know, I'm not going to tolerate this, but I really don't want to get separated. So he comes to her with a role play that builds on things that they had done before. And it gives her the opportunity to take it to an extreme with him. And maybe, just maybe, he'll come to realize and decide how important his marriage really is, whether they should just go separate ways.

01:03:58 SPEAKER_00
So that's the two, the 2 ,000 word things. One was two girls just clubbing and one comes back and just the way the... The woman looks and a couple of other things, gets her friend to say, you sucked him off, didn't you? And it was the sexy bartender that the girl had been, the woman in question had been avoiding because she has a boyfriend and she's happy with him. But the woman asking has been after the bartender for a long time. So that's a nice little disclosure trope.

01:04:39 SPEAKER_00
Gosh, I'm trying to even remember what the other one was. Because, you know, that's... Yeah.

01:04:47 SPEAKER_00
But, yeah, it's just, like I said, I come up with all sorts of stuff. And some that have sat there for years, I've never gone back to. Because it's just, I ran into a roadblock. And it's like,

01:04:56 SPEAKER_01
just, I

01:05:02 SPEAKER_00
yeah, I'm just not... Don't know why, but it's just not coming together.

01:05:09 SPEAKER_00
So, you know, oh, the other one is called Meeting Expectations. And it's about a couple that has been, has brought another man,

01:05:17 SPEAKER_00
about a couple that has been, has

01:05:23 SPEAKER_00
brought another man, a dominant man into the equation. Okay. And he,

01:05:32 SPEAKER_00
the agreement and everything has given him the ability to simply show up whenever. He wants some time with the wife. So he shows up and the couple's 19 -year -old nephew is over.

01:05:48 SPEAKER_00
So it creates a very interesting scenario.

01:05:51 SPEAKER_01
I bet. For sure.

01:05:56 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. But I started going back to some older ones. I've got one of the other one I'll mention that I'm going to wrap up soon. An aging couple. She has. She has disabilities, you know, things like arthritis and other stuff have crept in. And even to where she has to use a walker or sometimes even use a wheelchair for her. So they can't be the adventurous, you know, boundary -stretching couple they've been at times in the past. But she still misses that. So they concoct, by her going to a sex shop that they've used off and on over the years and gotten great advice from, she and the person there, have concocted a way that they can go to a club on a certain theme night. And she can have fun with him and the community around him at this themed party.

01:06:47 SPEAKER_00
him and the community around him at this themed party.

01:06:56 SPEAKER_02
They find a way to do... They find a way.

01:07:00 SPEAKER_00
find a way. There's a woman, Joan Price, who writes a lot about senior sex.

01:07:06 SPEAKER_02
Okay, yeah, I think I've heard her name before.

01:07:06 SPEAKER_00
yeah, I think I've heard her name before. And she's an advisor for Hot Octopus, a sex toy company. Oh, sure.

01:07:13 SPEAKER_02
Oh, sure.

01:07:14 SPEAKER_00
That has some great products for people that have had physical injury and can't get quite stimulated in the same way or struggle, as well as a great regulator. So I actually was on a two -hour panel with them discussing senior sex and sex toys.

01:07:31 SPEAKER_01
Oh, sure.

01:07:32 SPEAKER_00
sure. So it was supposed to be a 45 -minute discussion after two hours. They said, we got to cut this off. We wish we could go all day.

01:07:38 SPEAKER_02
this off.

01:07:41 SPEAKER_00
But that was really great. Yeah, that is a huge thing.

01:07:43 SPEAKER_02
that is a huge thing. This is a thing, too. Some people are scared of sex toys, but literally they are tools.

01:07:50 SPEAKER_00
They are tools. Every once in a while, I like my mac and cheese like it is, but then there's times I want to splash a certain kind of hot sauce on it. Yeah.

01:08:02 SPEAKER_02
Oh, for sure. So this is why I always get so upset when I hear people trying to restrict that. It's like, these are just tools. They're not a threat to anything. It's just silly that people are bitten by this.

01:08:14 SPEAKER_00
bitten by this. It's the patriarchal misunderstanding of, I'm not adequate enough anymore. You have to go get a toy or a tool.

01:08:24 SPEAKER_02
That's not what it's about at all. It's about, let's just do the whole smorgasbord.

01:08:26 SPEAKER_00
just do the

01:08:29 SPEAKER_00
Then again, it's... Something cute. I was just at, there was a major concert here in Southern California for the fire victims. Oh, sure. And one of the bands was No Doubt. And they have a real popular song from the early 90s called I'm Just a Girl.

01:08:47 SPEAKER_01
Yeah.

01:08:48 SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, she gets through a couple of, you know, verses and then she says, hey, we're going to try something different. He said, tonight, I want all the boys. I want all the SoCal boys. to sing that line with me and I'm looking and the guys she has the guys try it a few times yeah has some fun mocking them and then has the girl have the girls do it of course they blew the roof off right all right was the moment so as she's telling the guys are going to do this I'm looking around and I saw exactly what I expected the first time she had them repeat I'm just a boy or I'm I'm just a girl

01:09:03 SPEAKER_01
I'm looking

01:09:03 SPEAKER_00
I'm looking and

01:09:06 SPEAKER_00
guys she has the guys try it a few times yeah has some fun mocking them and then has the girl have the girls do it of course they blew the roof off right all

01:09:14 SPEAKER_02
do it of course they blew the roof off right all right was

01:09:19 SPEAKER_00
the moment so as she's telling the guys are going to do this I'm looking around and I saw exactly what I expected the first time she had them repeat I'm just a boy or I'm I'm just a girl Yeah. I had the guys sing it. I could tell who was going to sing it right away.

01:09:37 SPEAKER_01
And I could pick out who was like,

01:09:37 SPEAKER_00
I could pick out who was like, no, no one is going to sing that.

01:09:40 SPEAKER_01
one is going to sing that.

01:09:42 SPEAKER_00
And then the second time, it's like the women were looking at them, at their guys. And second time around, there were some that were guilted or free to have fun and just sing it anyway. Sure. But they would never do it on their own. And then third time around. There were even more guys that were willing because they saw more guys and it was that bro code.

01:09:59 SPEAKER_02
because they saw

01:10:04 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah. Okay,

01:10:05 SPEAKER_00
yeah. Okay, okay, yeah, I can do this. I can do this,

01:10:07 SPEAKER_02
can do this. I can do this, yeah. Yeah,

01:10:10 SPEAKER_00
so like you're saying, it's going to take just a little bit more acceptance, a little bit more understanding and normalization of these are not threats and no one's telling you you have to. Right. But let's just create an awareness.

01:10:23 SPEAKER_01
just create an awareness.

01:10:30 SPEAKER_01
A term I use with my students,

01:10:31 SPEAKER_00
my students, I want you to have humble confidence. Trust in what you know, don't think it's completely right. And be willing to hear other verses, other opinions, whatever. And give them consideration. Doesn't mean that you're suddenly going to turn purple with pink spots.

01:10:51 SPEAKER_02
Right.

01:10:54 SPEAKER_02
Exactly. We can hear other people's opinions and have it not impact us. It's not going to ruin us, right? Like we can just listen.

01:11:04 SPEAKER_01
We can just listen.

01:11:08 SPEAKER_02
A hundred percent. Well, is there anything we haven't talked about that you were really hoping to mention or talk about or anything like that?

01:11:17 SPEAKER_00
Not thinking about anything. If we come full circle. Yes. this has been a key element the ability to use erotica all levels and potentials of it to listen to it to hear it consider it to think about it has occasionally caused for giggles when we've been at the grocery store or or out at the farm market but in all honesty

01:11:33 SPEAKER_00
levels and potentials of it to listen to it to hear it consider it to think about it has occasionally caused for giggles when we've been at the grocery store or or out at the farm market but in all honesty We are so much more complete people when our minds are open to hearing and listening and considering.

01:12:02 SPEAKER_00
And then, so both on a personal level, that's made a huge difference. And for me, it's taken elements of who I was and either didn't know or hadn't really grasped and created a different person. somewhat that completely away from all this i've had people say you know you're just more chill or you're just a bit more yeah you bring up stuff in conversation that i would have never thought you would talk about and it doesn't have to be direct but it's just things about being human and the human connection becomes a bit easier to talk about for sure

01:12:24 SPEAKER_00
away from all this i've had people say you know you're just more chill or you're just a bit more yeah you bring up stuff in conversation that i would have never thought you would talk about and it doesn't have to be direct but it's

01:12:37 SPEAKER_01
have to be

01:12:39 SPEAKER_00
just things about being human and the human connection becomes a bit easier to talk about for

01:12:47 SPEAKER_02
sure I mean, we're not compartmentalized. And sometimes people think we are, but we're not. We're a whole person, like I said.

01:12:58 SPEAKER_00
It's the basis of social media these days, compartmentalizing so they can sell to us.

01:13:03 SPEAKER_02
Right. And we're not that.

01:13:04 SPEAKER_00
we're not that.

01:13:07 SPEAKER_02
No, we're not. You know, it's just like, you know, sometimes you can taste an ingredient, talking about food, in the food, but sometimes you can't. That doesn't mean it's not there. It's still a part of it and it's still making the whole. So we can't separate it out and it's not actually meant to be separated out. You can highlight it, but it's still a part of who you are and you can't deny it. And so I think people who are denying their sexuality are the ones that are miserable.

01:13:26 SPEAKER_00
part of

01:13:31 SPEAKER_02
sexuality are the ones that are miserable. They're just miserable.

01:13:37 SPEAKER_00
It can be. It also,

01:13:40 SPEAKER_00
it's like I said, we inherently want to say no. They've just never reached the point where they could or want to acknowledge that. And as long as they're owning it,

01:13:53 SPEAKER_00
long as they're owning it, I feel great. If it's being forced on them,

01:14:01 SPEAKER_01
I'm happy with that.

01:14:02 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, no forcing of anything anywhere.

01:14:07 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been so amazing. I really had a lot of fun. You know, we didn't even mention your blog. You have a blog too, right?

01:14:16 SPEAKER_00
Well, I have a website, bonekids .com. It's where I've been putting musings and it's really in need of a refresh. But the person that helped me create it has moved on, so I've got to find someone. But yeah, I have stories. I have three stories. I have musings there.

01:14:40 SPEAKER_00
I also am on places like Blue Sky and Threads and what I refuse to call anything other than Twitter.

01:14:48 SPEAKER_00
I refuse to call anything other than Twitter. I know,

01:14:51 SPEAKER_02
know, I still call it Twitter.

01:14:56 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and those are just more about observations and comments and shits and grins. And I'll occasionally link to... stories and posts that I have on my webpage there. And I'm doing all of this for me and for the people that matter to me. And so there's no notable headcount there and that's fine. I've always been a quality, not quantity person in my life because let's face it, 99 % of the things out there are not going to matter to you tomorrow. But you want to love the one percenters and embrace them and tell them how much you appreciate them.

01:15:41 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, this has been so amazing. So everyone can look down on the podcast show notes to find links to your work and they can find you on all the places that you already mentioned. And we just got to keep creating and reading and writing. What do we call it? Smart, erotica, open door. What else can we call it? Spicy. What other words can we throw at it? Yeah.

01:16:10 SPEAKER_00
So one of my next challenges is actually writing more. It was a challenge to write some and I'm writing more things that are simply connection, simply romance or with an illusion to, you know, nothing with an illusion. that other things did happen or could happen. But I just want to keep building on human connection.

01:16:38 SPEAKER_00
But every once in a while, you can't avoid grabbing a tube of lube and going at it.

01:16:43 SPEAKER_02
That's right.

01:16:47 SPEAKER_02
Variety is the spice of life. Isn't that what has been said forever?

01:16:51 SPEAKER_00
I'll run with that.

01:16:52 SPEAKER_02
Exactly. Well, thank you so much. This was super fun. I really enjoyed it. And keep doing what you're doing because it makes a difference in people's lives. It makes a difference in your life and, you know, your relationship. So we just got to keep growing that and eventually, hopefully, change the environment, the atmosphere, the culture, the society around sex. That's my goal, too. You know, like, we're humans.

01:17:23 SPEAKER_00
Well, and your podcast, again, everybody, if you have not scrolled through Ruin's podcast, the 566 episodes that cover just a huge range of things. And Ruin, you do it, you are an amazing interviewer and you do it so well that it just...

01:17:38 SPEAKER_01
things. And Ruin,

01:17:46 SPEAKER_00
it just... It's just a blessing to have out there. And I really appreciate you.

01:17:51 SPEAKER_02
Thank you. I really enjoy it. You know, I really have fun. And I feel like just about every person I interview, I'm like, oh, wait, it's been an hour. How did that happen? It feels like it's been like five minutes, you know, like it just like flies by. And I'm just like, what? No, it's like I went too fast, you know, like, which is really cool because it means you're having a great conversation. Right. But yeah, I have just I feel like I have just learned so much doing this podcast. All the amazing people. I feel like I've taken classes, you know, like all these amazing people that have come on and talked to me. It's just been it's been quite the ride. It's impacted it's impacted me personally. It's impacted my writing. It's been invaluable. So I love that people enjoy it, that they're getting something out of it around the world. You know, like people listen to me all around the world, which I love that I'm impacting people that are maybe in places are even more, you know, smothered and. You know, their sexuality is even more suppressed, oppressed, you know, not allowed to breathe around the world. But they can listen to podcasts. That's amazing.

01:18:54 SPEAKER_00
They can listen to podcasts.

01:18:55 SPEAKER_02
Amazing. Yes. So thank you for listening, all the people around the world. I love it. Well, thank you so much. And I hope you have an amazing day. And then this will be live all over and people can listen. They can watch. It'll be good.

01:19:15 SPEAKER_01
Thank you.

01:19:16 SPEAKER_02
Thank you. You have a good day. Me too.

01:19:19 SPEAKER_01
Okay. Bye -bye.